How much capital required to generate $200/day pair trading?

Discussion in 'Strategy Building' started by lolatency, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. I really hope that's not a serious question. If not, follow the Wiki link above.
     
    #71     Apr 12, 2009
  2. Syprik

    Syprik

    Is this a long only or bi-directional system? Over the last decade, has it outperformed a baseline SP500 200MA daily or 20-period monthly directional strategy (close above = long, close below = short)? Perhaps I'm too demanding, but why waste time implementing strategies that don't have the potential to significantly outperform this BL. Down 15% in this historical volatility is painfully poor, granted it is not long only.
     
    #72     Apr 16, 2009
  3. spinn

    spinn

    It is not poor if you do not have a conscience and can convince people to pay you to lose money.
     
    #73     Apr 16, 2009
  4. Spinn can see my pm for a response. He has been added to my ignore list, and congrats on being the first. This kind of wannabe behavior is very annoying. His failings as a trader are very apparent when he sees someone more succesful than himself, both as a trader and as a professional.
     
    #74     Apr 16, 2009
  5. Hi, the anwer is yes. Your strategy, since 3/20/2007 has these as returns:
    Long + Short Long Only Short Only Buy & Hold
    Starting Capital $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00
    Ending Capital $102,637.64 $102,637.64 $169,909.00 $104,103.95
    Net Profit ($67,271.36) ($67,271.36) $0.00 ($65,805.05)
    Net Profit % -39.59% -39.59% 0.00% -38.73%
    Annualized Gain % -21.56% -21.56% 0.00% -21.03%
    Exposure 53.24% 53.24% 0.00% 100.00%

    Cash Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Margin Loan Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Total Commission ($11.15) ($11.15) $0.00 ($12.05)

    Number of Trades 1 1 0 1
    Avg Profit/Loss ($67,271.36) ($67,271.36) $0.00 ($65,805.05)
    Avg Profit/Loss % -41.09% -41.09% 0.00% -38.70%
    Avg Bars Held 325 325 0 524

    Winning Trades 0 0 0 0
    Winning % 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
    Gross Profit $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Avg Profit $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Avg Profit % 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 0.00%
    Avg Bars Held 0 0 0 0
    Max Consecutive 0 0 0 0

    Losing Trades 1 1 0 1
    Losing % 100.00% 100.00% 0.00% 100.00%
    Gross Loss ($67,271.36) ($67,271.36) $0.00 ($65,805.05)
    Avg Loss ($67,271.36) ($67,271.36) $0.00 ($65,805.05)
    Avg Loss % -41.09% -41.09% 0.00% -38.70%
    Avg Bars Held 325 325 0 524
    Max Consecutive 1 1 0 1

    Max Drawdown ($87,776.21) ($87,776.21) $0.00 ($106,485.84)
    Max Drawdown Date 3/9/2009 3/9/2009 N/A 3/9/2009
    Max Drawdown % -51.66% -51.66% 0.00% -56.51%
    Max Drawdown % Date 3/9/2009 3/9/2009 N/A 3/9/2009

    Wealth-Lab Score -61.4249 -61.4249 0 -32.9078
    RAR -40.5015 -40.5015 0 -21.0262
    Profit Factor 0 0 0 0
    Recovery Factor 0.7664 0.7664 0 0.618
    Payoff Ratio 0 0 0 0
    Sharpe Ratio -1.0262 -1.0262 0 -0.9069
    Dghost Annual Volatility % 24.262 24.262 0 26.6304
    Excess Return -24.8966 -24.8966 0 -24.1515
    Ulcer Index 21.3821 21.3821 0 25.0647
    WL Error Term 7.763 7.763 0 8.146
    WL Reward Ratio -2.7776 -2.7776 0 -2.5812
    Luck Coefficient 0 0 0 0
    Pessimistic Rate of Return 0 0 0 0
    Equity Drop Ratio -0.2739 -0.2739 0 -0.2804

    Looks like -40%

    Here's the program
    var Bar: integer;
    var SMA200,SMA20:integer;
    SMA200:=createseries;
    SMA20:=createseries;
    SMA200:=SMASeries(#Close,200);
    SMA20:=SMASeries(#Close,20);
    for Bar := 20 to BarCount - 1 do
    begin
    if not LastPositionActive then
    { Entry Rules }
    begin
    if crossover(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin buyatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;
    if crossunder(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin shortatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;
    end
    else
    { Exit Rules }
    begin
    if crossover(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin coveratmarket(Bar+1,lastposition,'');buyatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;
    if crossunder(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin sellatmarket(Bar+1,lastposition,'');shortatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;

    end;
    end;


    Here's the results since 9/1/1998 of your bi-directional system

    Long + Short Long Only Short Only Buy & Hold
    Starting Capital $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00
    Ending Capital $53,683.46 $122,338.81 $101,253.64 $236,738.35
    Net Profit $-116,225.54 $-47,570.19 $-68,655.36 $66,829.35
    Net Profit % -68.40% -28.00% -40.41% 39.33%
    Annualized Gain % -8.31% -2.44% -3.82% 2.53%
    Exposure 69.52% 23.05% 37.25% 100.00%

    Cash Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Margin Loan Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Total Commission $-391.17 $-199.51 $-191.66 $-27.43

    Number of Trades 21 11 10 1
    Avg Profit/Loss $-5,534.55 $-4,324.56 $-6,865.54 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit/Loss % -4.70% -4.18% -5.26% 39.22%
    Avg Bars Held 127.05 106.00 150.20 3,343.00

    Winning Trades 10 7 3 1
    Winning % 47.62% 63.64% 30.00% 100.00%
    Gross Profit $47,406.83 $41,190.34 $6,216.49 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit $4,740.68 $5,884.33 $2,072.16 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit % 3.73% 4.50% 1.93% 39.22%
    Avg Bars Held 27.90 28.00 27.67 3,343.00
    Max Consecutive 3 3 1 1

    Losing Trades 11 4 7 0
    Losing % 52.38% 36.36% 70.00% 0.00%
    Gross Loss $-163,632.37 $-88,760.52 $-74,871.85 $0.00
    Avg Loss $-14,875.67 $-22,190.13 $-10,695.98 $0.00
    Avg Loss % -12.36% -19.38% -8.35% 0.00%
    Avg Bars Held 217.18 242.50 202.71 0.00
    Max Consecutive 3 2 4 0

    Max Drawdown $-150,969.48 $-90,759.48 $-76,809.94 $-242,398.89
    Max Drawdown Date 3/9/2009 3/9/2009 7/19/2007 3/9/2009
    Max Drawdown % -77.88% -44.86% -44.93% -56.54%
    Max Drawdown % Date 3/9/2009 3/9/2009 7/19/2007 3/9/2009

    Wealth-Lab Score -21.2511 -15.3460 -14.8659 1.0985
    RAR -11.9471 -10.5934 -10.2572 2.5277
    Profit Factor 0.2897 0.4641 0.0830 INF
    Recovery Factor 0.7699 0.5241 0.8938 0.2757
    Payoff Ratio 0.3019 0.2323 0.2316 INF
    Sharpe Ratio -0.5135 -0.2690 -0.4059 0.1944
    Dghost Annual Volatility % 15.5020 8.6268 8.7187 17.0242
    Excess Return -7.9607 -2.3207 -3.5393 3.3097
    Ulcer Index 40.2764 20.4350 26.9809 21.2442
    WL Error Term 7.4570 6.2140 3.5880 12.2460
    WL Reward Ratio -1.1137 -0.3930 -1.0650 0.2064
    Luck Coefficient 3.5286 2.9245 1.4916 0.0000
    Pessimistic Rate of Return 0.1442 0.1686 0.0304 0.0000
    Equity Drop Ratio -0.6427 -2.3077 -1.0168 2.2589


    This is very poor.
     
    #75     Apr 16, 2009
  6. Here's my system from 6/15/2006

    Long + Short Long Only Short Only Buy & Hold
    Starting Capital $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00
    Ending Capital $564,994.80 $564,994.80 $185,847.39 $-184,033.96
    Net Profit $395,085.80 $395,085.80 $15,938.39 $-353,942.96
    Net Profit % 232.53% 232.53% 9.38% -208.31%
    Annualized Gain % 54.56% 54.56% 3.30% Error Y=-1.0831 Days=1008
    Exposure 19.34% 19.34% 0.00% 0.00%

    Cash Interest $25,056.00 $25,056.00 $15,938.39 $0.00
    Margin Loan Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $-114,128.55
    Total Commission $-8,983.51 $-8,983.51 $0.00 $-67.84

    Number of Trades 71 71 0 1
    Avg Profit/Loss $5,564.59 $5,564.59 $0.00 $-353,942.96
    Avg Profit/Loss % 1.78% 1.78% 0.00% -46.98%
    Avg Bars Held 1.99 1.99 0.00 694.00

    Winning Trades 49 49 0 0
    Winning % 69.01% 69.01% 0.00% 0.00%
    Gross Profit $631,481.61 $631,481.61 $0.00 $0.00
    Avg Profit $12,887.38 $12,887.38 $0.00 $0.00
    Avg Profit % 3.92% 3.92% 0.00% 0.00%
    Avg Bars Held 2.08 2.08 0.00 0.00
    Max Consecutive 7 7 0 0

    Losing Trades 22 22 0 1
    Losing % 30.99% 30.99% 0.00% 100.00%
    Gross Loss $-261,451.82 $-261,451.82 $0.00 $-239,814.41
    Avg Loss $-11,884.17 $-11,884.17 $0.00 $-239,814.41
    Avg Loss % -2.99% -2.99% 0.00% -46.98%
    Avg Bars Held 1.77 1.77 0.00 694.00
    Max Consecutive 3 3 0 1

    Max Drawdown $-72,035.31 $-72,035.31 $0.00 $-352,436.72
    Max Drawdown Date 9/3/2008 9/3/2008 N/A 4/16/2009
    Max Drawdown % -15.43% -15.43% 0.00% -180.42%
    Max Drawdown % Date 9/3/2008 9/3/2008 N/A 6/5/2008

    Wealth-Lab Score 238.5274 238.5274 0.0000 0.0000
    RAR 282.0313 282.0313 0.0000 0.0000
    Profit Factor 2.4153 2.4153 0.0000 0.0000
    Recovery Factor 5.4846 5.4846 0.0000 1.0043
    Payoff Ratio 1.3098 1.3098 0.0000 0.0000
    Sharpe Ratio 1.5921 1.5921 65.8277 0.4190
    Dghost Annual Volatility % 28.3510 28.3510 0.0494 5,348.7437
    Excess Return 45.1367 45.1367 3.2534 2,240.9083
    Ulcer Index 4.5407 4.5407 0.0000 121.7448
    WL Error Term 5.3170 5.3170 0.0080 1,328.3130
    WL Reward Ratio 10.2607 10.2607 412.7625 0.0000
    Luck Coefficient 3.9839 3.9839 0.0000 0.0000
    Pessimistic Rate of Return 2.0611 2.0611 0.0000 0.0000
    Equity Drop Ratio 0.0542 0.0542 0.0000 0.0000

    Obviously there's a big difference in profits, and if you go from 3/20/2007 when I started on C2 we have a difference of 0.8-(-.4)=12000 basis points or 120%. Those were unleveraged returns with position sizing of 96%.


    Anyway, I really don't think that was even close to a fair comparison, given that SMA's are proven to be unprofitable they would not be something to try to compare side by side to a CFA candidate's level of work.
     
    #76     Apr 16, 2009
  7. When you reverse these you get:
    var Bar: integer;
    var SMA200,SMA20:integer;
    SMA200:=createseries;
    SMA20:=createseries;
    SMA200:=SMASeries(#Close,200);
    SMA20:=SMASeries(#Close,20);


    for Bar := 20 to BarCount - 1 do
    begin

    if not LastPositionActive then
    { Entry Rules }
    begin
    if crossover(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin shortatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;{Instead of what you had suggested you actually want to do the opposite if the 200 period SMA crosses over the 20 period SMA.
    if crossunder(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin buyatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;
    end
    else
    { Exit Rules }
    begin
    if crossunder(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin coveratmarket(Bar+1,lastposition,'');buyatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;
    if crossover(Bar,SMA200,SMA20) then begin sellatmarket(Bar+1,lastposition,'');shortatmarket(Bar+1,''); end;

    end;
    end;

    Since 9/1/1998 this strategy has returned less than bonds with a comparable amount of risk.

    Long + Short Long Only Short Only Buy & Hold
    Starting Capital $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00
    Ending Capital $328,190.50 $251,452.14 $246,647.36 $236,738.35
    Net Profit $158,281.50 $81,543.14 $76,738.36 $66,829.35
    Net Profit % 93.16% 47.99% 45.16% 39.33%
    Annualized Gain % 5.08% 2.99% 2.84% 2.53%
    Exposure 80.79% 45.40% 43.90% 100.00%

    Cash Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Margin Loan Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Total Commission $-701.75 $-342.60 $-359.15 $-27.43

    Number of Trades 21 10 11 1
    Avg Profit/Loss $7,537.21 $8,154.31 $6,976.21 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit/Loss % 3.94% 4.46% 3.47% 39.22%
    Avg Bars Held 127.05 150.20 106.00 3,343.00

    Winning Trades 10 6 4 1
    Winning % 47.62% 60.00% 36.36% 100.00%
    Gross Profit $249,382.52 $99,672.47 $149,710.05 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit $24,938.25 $16,612.08 $37,427.51 $66,829.35
    Avg Profit % 12.85% 8.86% 18.84% 39.22%
    Avg Bars Held 226.00 215.00 242.50 3,343.00
    Max Consecutive 2 3 2 1

    Losing Trades 11 4 7 0
    Losing % 52.38% 40.00% 63.64% 0.00%
    Gross Loss $-91,101.02 $-18,129.33 $-72,971.69 $0.00
    Avg Loss $-8,281.91 $-4,532.33 $-10,424.53 $0.00
    Avg Loss % -4.16% -2.14% -5.32% 0.00%
    Avg Bars Held 37.09 53.00 28.00 0.00
    Max Consecutive 4 2 3 0

    Max Drawdown $-52,919.86 $-24,755.80 $-74,490.39 $-242,398.89
    Max Drawdown Date 8/24/2006 4/25/2003 12/10/2007 3/9/2009
    Max Drawdown % -19.57% -11.81% -34.23% -56.54%
    Max Drawdown % Date 8/24/2006 4/25/2003 12/10/2007 3/9/2009

    Wealth-Lab Score 5.0569 5.8154 4.2613 1.0985
    RAR 6.2875 6.5944 6.4795 2.5277
    Profit Factor 2.7374 5.4979 2.0516 INF
    Recovery Factor 2.9910 3.2939 1.0302 0.2757
    Payoff Ratio 3.0877 4.1473 3.5411 INF
    Sharpe Ratio 0.5054 0.4821 0.3248 0.1944
    Dghost Annual Volatility % 11.6376 6.6340 11.5345 17.0242
    Excess Return 5.8822 3.1985 3.7466 3.3097
    Ulcer Index 7.9556 5.3596 15.6745 21.2442
    WL Error Term 5.7870 3.0350 8.3450 12.2460
    WL Reward Ratio 0.8778 0.9865 0.3409 0.2064
    Luck Coefficient 3.1106 2.2957 2.1221 0.0000
    Pessimistic Rate of Return 1.4747 2.4542 0.7342 0.0000
    Equity Drop Ratio 0.4793 0.4838 2.0108 2.2589

    Or a 5% APR with a 20% DD.


    Obviously this will work in reverse since 6/15/2006:

    Long + Short Long Only Short Only Buy & Hold
    Starting Capital $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00 $169,909.00
    Ending Capital $236,504.54 $169,909.00 $236,504.54 $104,103.95
    Net Profit $66,595.54 $0.00 $66,595.54 $-65,805.05
    Net Profit % 39.19% 0.00% 39.19% -38.73%
    Annualized Gain % 17.27% 0.00% 17.27% -21.03%
    Exposure 64.23% 0.00% 64.23% 100.00%

    Cash Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Margin Loan Interest $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00
    Total Commission $-11.15 $0.00 $-11.15 $-12.05

    Number of Trades 1 0 1 1
    Avg Profit/Loss $66,595.54 $0.00 $66,595.54 $-65,805.05
    Avg Profit/Loss % 40.84% 0.00% 40.84% -38.70%
    Avg Bars Held 325.00 0.00 325.00 524.00

    Winning Trades 1 0 1 0
    Winning % 100.00% 0.00% 100.00% 0.00%
    Gross Profit $66,595.54 $0.00 $66,595.54 $0.00
    Avg Profit $66,595.54 $0.00 $66,595.54 $0.00
    Avg Profit % 40.84% 0.00% 40.84% 0.00%
    Avg Bars Held 325.00 0.00 325.00 0.00
    Max Consecutive 1 0 1 0

    Losing Trades 0 0 0 1
    Losing % 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% 100.00%
    Gross Loss $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $-65,805.05
    Avg Loss $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $-65,805.05
    Avg Loss % 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% -38.70%
    Avg Bars Held 0.00 0.00 0.00 524.00
    Max Consecutive 0 0 0 1

    Max Drawdown $-20,504.86 $0.00 $-20,504.86 $-106,485.84
    Max Drawdown Date 4/16/2009 N/A 4/16/2009 3/9/2009
    Max Drawdown % -8.82% 0.00% -8.82% -56.51%
    Max Drawdown % Date 5/19/2008 N/A 5/19/2008 3/9/2009

    Wealth-Lab Score 24.5214 0.0000 24.5214 -32.9078
    RAR 26.8937 0.0000 26.8937 -21.0262
    Profit Factor INF 0.0000 INF 0.0000
    Recovery Factor 3.2478 0.0000 3.2478 0.6180
    Payoff Ratio INF 0.0000 INF 0.0000
    Sharpe Ratio 1.4338 0.0000 1.4338 -0.9069
    Dghost Annual Volatility % 13.0900 0.0000 13.0900 26.6304
    Excess Return 18.7690 0.0000 18.7690 -24.1515
    Ulcer Index 3.3732 0.0000 3.3732 25.0647
    WL Error Term 4.2680 0.0000 4.2680 8.1460
    WL Reward Ratio 4.0472 0.0000 4.0472 -2.5812
    Luck Coefficient 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
    Pessimistic Rate of Return 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
    Equity Drop Ratio 0.0782 0.0000 0.0782 -0.2804

    So we're still comparing apples to oranges in terms of performance given that the long term APR of such a strategy is negligible at 5%, and the current periods results only have 1 trade. The current "profit" shown will give back a substantial amount of earnings as it "falls back" to the reversal, and this is inherently why SMA's do not work. They give back too much of their profits to have high risk adjusted returns over long periods. That's why when you say well it made 40% this period, but only made 5% APR we're not talking about the same thing. This is referred to as luck.

    Apparently no one believes results from c2, so you can track my real trades at covestor.com under the name bwolinsky.
     
    #77     Apr 16, 2009
  8. Syprik

    Syprik

    Are you just severly incompetent, or misinterpreted what I use as a "baseline" comparison model?

    Buy bar that closes "above" 20-monthly or 200-daily, or sell bar that closes below 20-monthly or 200-daily.

    Ex, SP500 20-monthly from the date you selected (3/20/2007) to current entails 2 trades:

    1. Long SPY 1425 April 1 2007
    Flat 1375 Jan 31 2008
    Gain/Loss: -3.51%
    2. Short SPY 1375 Jan 31 2008 - Trade remains valid short @ 870
    Gain/Loss: +36.77%

    Net Gain/Loss from your 3/20/2007: +33.26%

    200SMA is approximately +375-400 SP points net over that same time frame.

    If you misinterpreted, no problem. If not, you are an absolute joke.
     
    #78     Apr 19, 2009
  9. spinn

    spinn

    Here is the PM bwolinsky sent:

    "You can go fuck yourself for heckling, dickhead
    Go fuck yourself. You only wish you made 80% in the last two years, ass hole."

    Why would a Guru get so sensitive? Is he having trouble living with himself? Probably not.

    I kinda feel bad for the guy.......losing money for twelve months in a row must be frustrating........I wouldnt know.
     
    #79     Apr 19, 2009
  10. I personally find it bothering how you continue to post / quote a PM in public.
     
    #80     Apr 19, 2009