i agree with 2cents, an internal move from any middle/back office role to trading is unheard of. However, these things happen in smaller institutions and hedge funds. In fact, I am aware of a pa at a large hedge fund making trader
ok - just to chip in on the side of taking the JPM job: who knows you may actually get exposure to the trading floor from Ops, you may even be sitting on the trading floor - it sort of depends what sort of "Ops" job it is and what kind of products we're talking about...try to get involved in the most complex products you can... Fwiw I know a very very large top-tier institution where it is reasonably common for accountants in their product control department to go on and get structuring and trading jobs - even and perhaps especially in exotic derivatives.
Granville, Thank you Its very nice to see constructive, positive posts in ET, somedays I ask myself WHY bother posting to this forum because it's so negative and destructive but then every once and awhile I actually HELP a fellow trader and it makes all worth it. Good Trading to you.
Things may be a bit different in Canada or the UK than they are here in the states. In any case, why not start off in the right place rather than having to work to erase the "back-office" stigma? You have a lot of options right after college, so if you know you want to trade (not just make a comfortable salary doing some middle office work someday) why not go out and do it? I also think you may be a lot better off in a smaller firm environment rather than a gigantic institution like JPM that has structured Analyst/Associate recruiting out of Ivy league schools, MBA's, etc.
uiucgrad, I can relate. I graduated last May and found a job as a trader in Chicago. If you can get your hands on a Bloomberg, it is a great tool for finding a job. Almost 100% of the jobs that I applied to through Bloomberg Jobs offered me an interview. Also, go to the websites of the CME, CBOT, and CBOE and find lists of the companies that trade on those exchanges and apply through the websites. Honestly, I didn't have a lot of luck that way, but it's worth a shot. I would suggest opening an online demo account (i.e. paper trading) with a broker. When you get to the interview if you can talk to them from your previous trading experience (albeit without real money), it's a huge step forward. Also, some of my friends at work spent almost the entire interview time talking about playing poker. The idea is to find something that you can relate to trading and show them how you exhibit the characteristics of a successful trader. As others have mentioned, you have the advantage of being from Chicago. I didn't have that advantage. Since I moved here, I have met several traders at bars around the city that would have easily been able to get me an interview. (In fact, one guy I met in the bar offered me a job on the spot, but I have no intentions of leaving my firm). Go to Ceres (the bar/restaurant in the lobby of the CBOT) around 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon. Just sit at the bar and talk to some people around you. Or, go to the bars right around the CBOT/CBOE. There are traders everywhere around there, and since the (electronic) markets never really close, you'll find people at bars at all hours of the day and night. Another approach would be to stand outside one of the exchanges and talk to some of the people smoking cigarettes. One thing I would suggest (and I may get jumped for this) is to opt for electronic trading over floor trading. I may be biased since I trade on the screen, but it seems like the market is moving more and more toward electronic, and I know that several firms will not hire former floor traders. On the floor, it is all about who you know, and who you stand next to...that's your edge. When you move to the screen you don't have that edge and a lot of people can't make that adjustment. Also, it seems like when you trade on the screen you have a lot more information and tools at your disposal. Best of luck. Maybe I'll see you in Ceres.
^Lots of good info. Its funny how poker is always associated with trading. I knew all those poker games would be good somewhere, LOL
I've received a lot of PMs regarding my previous post. I think it should go without saying that your first course of action regardless of what job you are trying to get is to network. Talk to your friends, find out what their parents do, follow up with anyone you meet that may be able to help you, and if anyone else ever needs help, help them...it's a two way process. Most importantly, get in touch with your Alumni Association. I made numerous contacts through my school's Alumni function (before I graduated). Most schools have Alumni chapters in every major city. Go watch your school's football games, basketball games, etc. at the Alumni bar. Also, search the database and call some people up. Some people will hang up on you, but some will go way out of their way to help. Anyway, the CME and CBOT put together a booklet called "Proprietary Trading Firm and Trading Arcade Directory." It has a partial list of the proprietary trading firms that are members of both the CME and CBOT. It gives a brief description of each firm and what they offer. Also, each firm has a contact that anyone interested in employment can send their resumes to. You can call the CME Education Department at 312-930-6937 and request a copy. But, I listed the firms below. Alaron Allston Trading, LLC Altea Trading Company LLC The Archelon Group Boston Cabot LLC Consolidated Trading LLC Cornerstone Partners Curvalue Financial Services Group Darwin Capital Trading LLC DE Trading Corp / International Trading Group DRW Trading Group FCT Group of Companies Fusionary Trading Gator Trading Partners, LLC Geneva Trading GETCO, LLC GHCO (Goldenberg, Hehmeyer & Co) Harrison Trading Group, LLC Infinium Capital Management KC-CO II, LLC Kingtree Trading, LLC Marquette Partners LP Optiver Refco Trading Services Rho Trading Securities, LLC Saxon Financials Limited SMW Trading Company, Inc. TradeGroup Transmarket Group LLLC University of Trading The Wescott Group Wolverine Trading LLP
accountants from product control going into structuring especially in exotic derivatives?? is that a joke? do you know how much brain power those guys have?
I feel I need to chime in here, i have extensive experience in this (this is rather longwinded, but shows you how just showing your face and having a desire to LEARN and LISTEN can help you grow your network of friends) Back in 2002, I decided to switch to "active" trading (finally pursue the passion of my heart, I had been "investing" if you will since '99). I was in Chicago. I didn't know ANYONE at the CME/CBOT/CBOE/CHX. The only things I saw of the floors was .. from the visitors gallery when I would get bored during the day and make the drive into Chicago. I traded on my own, from good ol mom's basement, focusing on stocks first, which was O.K., I had drinking money/car payments and savings sometimes. Not having any significant responsibilities (no dependents, etc) I was learning and honing my skills. During this time, I also worked for a dotcom company and a couple smaller companies which gave me the freedom to do as I desired with my day, as long as the work got done. Things got rocky when bond vols dried up in the spring/summer of 2004. I was not really "working", so I had to get a contract job (in technology). Then, I made a stupid mistake on NFP (nonfarm payrolls day) which kinda took me out. I held on to the position, and within a week or so the blood loss had come back to a bit more reasonable (I was so close to being just "taken out"). Learned my lesson. That was in fall of 04, well after what happened below (and right before I got a job with the IB in chicago) Meanwhile.. Early 2004, I had met a bunch of folks on here from ET, and we started hanging out at Rivers in the CME. I think the first place we all met was Poag Mahone's. I spent increasingly amounts of time down at the exchanges, and with the contract jobs keeping me in the downtown Loop a lot, I started having breakfast everyday at Ceres in the CBOT. I met a group of ladies who work in the Fed (a couple work other places, but they're all friends). They all sat down and had breakfast. They were also friends with another long time vet of the pits who traded in the beans pit. The ladies invited me over and adopted me as their "son". The waitress for that area (you ceres folks know her) Beatrice even 'adopted' me. Eventually, we talked about trading, and I conveyed my desire to work in the pits or prop trade eventually. They introduced me to the beans pit trader, who after time, introduced me to his friend in the grains pit. I also met some folks from Gelber, and even began to meet Rick Santelli (who always orders corned beef and hash and sits in the corner reading a paper) Well, I got taken onto the floor, met BBQ and a lot of folks. No job, it was slow over in Ags. I also, through a friend, met the infamous Girondi from ag options. I met his group, and one of them tried to get me in as a tech guy for Proopticus. By this time, my MORNING Ceres network had grown substantially. All of them are great people, love em to death (I miss seeing them everyday). I started hanging out at Ceres at lunch as well (hee hee).. I met more folks, like some cool clerks from the Dow and Bond pits, my wacky clerk friend Trina from the Ags. I also met a ton more traders. One guy who refers to 11:30am as "eleven thirsty" and a bunch of traders and their clerks from the corn, wheat and beans pits. Who can ever forget MTB (Meatball, or Meatwad) LOL.. And MNE (MONEEEYYY was the cry when we saw him).. and PMP (Pimp) ROFL.. For the evening session, I met a quite eclectic crowd of people. Many of them traders and clerks from the grains who had been down there since the close, and the Dow guys who were getting out. A lot of electronic traders. You get all kinds of people down there, from the Government buildings around the area, to my favorite, Len and Cathy, who are the "glue" of the evening session at the bar I met someone who took me under his wing and taught me a lot about trading and the fundamentals. All in told, I met about 500 people. And, I know them all. I love them all, they are a group of people that are fun to be around, and I've learned a LOT. They've helped me out, helped me get where I am. Yes, BE CAREFUL. There's a lot of a-holes down there, but like every bushel of apples, there's bound to be a few bad ones. All said, I got a job with a major IB based out of NY with offices in Chicago. I'm in OPERATIONS (yes.. OPERATIONS, ya know, the one with the tarnish that's hard to remove?). I got transferred to NYC, double my Chicago salary. It's worth it. In ops, I've managed to use my knowledge of real world trading to my advantage. This is an opportunity to interact with the traders and LEVERAGE my skills. So far, I'm now interacting with several high-level MD's and SMD's that are heads of trading desks (mostly equity derivatives and derivatives middle desk). I've given demos of our latest trading platform modifications, and, yes, using my knowledge of trading, shown them REAL world examples that they could use on our platforms. They're impressed. More and more, my visibility and my eagerness to learn beyond what I know are beginning to pay off. (Humbleness goes a LONG way when dealing with these people too... Get them to talk to you and begin to ask questions once you've developed a relationship. It shows you're geniuinely interested) It's not easy to do this transition, but it's a LOT easier than just sending your resume out to some other firm trying for an assistant position. I've had to WORK MY ASS OFF TO GET WHERE I AM. I don't think it's any different across the street at JPMC. It's easier to transition from in house, work your ass off so your colleagues and managers if asked from other people say: "How is so and so?" .. You want the reply to be "So and so is GOOD." ... not "so and so is GOOD... BUT.... BUT....." don't get caught up in the politics of an office. Come in, do your work, show your stuff and get noticed without getting into the catfights. (I'm guilty of this, and it's hurt me here, but each day is a new day) It's not impossible, as some folk say. Just like trading, you gotta bust your balls.. Perhaps a bit harder. In the end, it pays off. HTH, C By the way, for all you Chicago folk, I'll be back in Chicago late March to celebrate my b-day at ceres. Stop on in, I'm sure with certain bartenders pouring, it will be one smashing time......