Is there some sort of hard line set of rules. NO I DONT/WONT spoof. Not like I can being a little minnow in the game. In any case I dont see why it should be illegal. I think its being a smart investor. In any case, how can they prove youre spoofing? You could just say you chnaged your mind? Repetitive? Tell them thats just your trading strategy and sometimes you decide to cancel orders... Couldnt find anything on this.
Yeah, except it's not sometimes but most/all of the times. If it's automated, they can look at the code. Basically, it's illegal to intentionally manipulate price. If your strategy sends non bona fide orders, your strategy is questionable. I suspect that the only reason why it's illegal is because exchange members don't like it. My assumption is that when HFTs came along, spoofing became undesirable for MMs while it was just fine prior to.
It is very simple to tell. If the Dow drops 800 points in 5 minutes, you might be a red... I mean spoofer.
The spoofing laws are complete bullsh*t. If I post an order, that order can get executed against, period. Just the act of posting an order implies that I could be filled. Any law that attempts to get inside the mind of a trader to determine "intent" of an order is a crock of sh*t.
%% That qlai; or some would consider anyone persistently breaking their word a fraud /liar. A series of constant cancels=fraud /wire fraud. And you ever been in business????? How would you like people constantly canceling orders , to you+ tieing up you phone/fax in the process?? ??????? SEE it now ??
No I don’t see it from that perspective. That is a horse of a different color. Trading is either an auction where price is constantly probed and pushed for value and then exploited for profit. Or it is a war full of trickery, deceit, manipulation, wits pitted against wits..overwhelming force..etc. Maybe a bit of both things, auction and war. Traders have always placed orders and canceled them. Way before the word spoofing was ever invented. MM’s and specialist have probably been involved with placing and canceling orders to entice and trick for decades. It is just when it became automated it could be done in nano seconds via computers and retail traders are having to learn how to stay out of the spoofing zone. Just my opinion nothing more.
%% Sounds like you, Volpro , never were in business for yourself, or fought in a war + also maybe you dont want to see it?? A war full of manipulation; sure as if there were no SEC[sarcasm] ?? Also your logic is very faulty, since some MM /specialists may or may not do it- try that logic on a policeman next time you are caught speeding LOL. Do not try this @ home or around a policeman, Word to the wise-thanks
Sorry but I do not see trading as a business regardless of what charlie wright or any other bookwriter or educator says. In trading futures I am not giving or selling a product or service in exchange for $$. I am trying to take money from your account and put it into mine and leave you with a loss. Unfortunately, for me you are trying to do the same thing to my account. There is nothing fair about trading. It is a pitting of the wits against each other and an exploiting of price movement to make someone else lose so that you can gain. Since folks have since the beginning tried to do this they invent all sorts of things to give them the advantage. Spoofing is one of them and has been going on since I can remember. We just didn’t have a name for it. The sec or regulatory agents will never be able to totally eliminate these sort of things. They can mitigate them somewhat. I remember in years gone by when the specialists on the NYSE and the AMEX used to open the spread to entice buyers and seller and show size on the offer or bid to move sellers and buyers. AND they were allowed to trade for themselves too and could see all the orders something us regular traders had no access to. Is that not a sort of insider info and tge agencies let it occur didn’t they? Where were the regulations and regulators then? When I would see the spread open up I would take a slice out of the middle with limit orders and if they would not execute it I would go to a market order. The spread belonged to the specialist. They would get mad. I have done same with Naz and the MM’s. Even had the market makers REFUSE to fill a market order (which is illegal) and had to call my broker and they tell me the market maker won’t fill it. Trading is not a business. It is dog eat dog anyway they can and get away with it. Please don’t expect people to play fair or cut any slack in trading. Now you got 70% or more being executed by computers and programs. The retail trader is left to his own wits to figure a way to beat them all or catch a ride along with them to make some $$. We have to stay out of the HFT zone as we cannot compete on their field and take their money. All MM’s and specialist have HAD inside info to trade on but they were granted that because they take on the risk of “making the market.” But it HAS GIVEN them an unfair advantage IMO PS I have had my own business. It was not like trading at all. Period.
%% IF your trading NOT a business; congrats VolPro,you maybe the first/few hobby traders to make money. AS far as taking money from some one; i never look @ that way. I have a business plan /profit plan+ as far as stocks/ETFs = its not winner take all like some futures. That is unusual not to get a market order filled; some of them take to long LOL/slippage , if its semi liquid. And WE may call that inside info , but not that the SEC would. , Thanks