Holding 3x etf long term

Discussion in 'ETFs' started by highrisk, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. srinir

    srinir

    Thanks.
    I looked up short rates at IB. They are much lower.
    Snap8.png

    So for Portfolio2: It is about (2.09% + 2.16%)*3 (borrow rate+margin rate) =12.75%. If i add transaction cost 2%, total cost will be approximately 15% annually.

    I figured out to add an additional cost in portfoliovisualizer (Basically add cost of advisor fee). Using 15% annual cost, final balance is $123,303. So it is certainly much better than straightup UPRO, but not better than using future
     
    #51     Oct 23, 2017
  2. JackRab

    JackRab

    @srinir, have you taken dividends into account? SPY pays out regular dividends... on different dates that S&P500... And how do the leveraged ETFs treat dividend ex-dates in S&P500?
     
    #52     Oct 23, 2017
  3. Thx for sharing. The result would be very different if you rebalance base on diffferent timing or condition. The cost of ask bid rebalance can be high. The ib short interest rate is different everyday so almost impossible to simulate. I monitor all 3x oil etf and the borrow short cost change a lot sometimes and just run out of stocks to short sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    #53     Oct 24, 2017
  4. srinir

    srinir

    Portfoliovisualizer does take into account dividends. It is easy to test it out.
    Portfolio 1: VFINX (SP500 vanguard mutual fund)
    Portfolio 2: SPY

    Snap9.png
    These are the returns from Jan 1994. Minor difference between the two is entirely because of difference in expense ratio (SPY is more expensive than VFINX).

    Regarding question of leveraged ETF and dividends, ETF provider enters into "Total return SWAP" with financial institutions. So dividends should be taken into consideration in that swap.
     
    #54     Oct 24, 2017
    JackRab likes this.
  5. srinir

    srinir

    Agree. If the levered ETF can not beat out Futures in favorable conditions like today, it will be much more difficult during the time of stress when short rates, margin rates and spreads are all higher. Volatility drag which is higher during the time of stress by itself can not mitigate its short comings.

    For a retail investor it is very difficult to beat out the embedded interest rates in the futures and broad index options.

    Thanks for your input.
     
    #55     Oct 24, 2017
  6. highrisk

    highrisk

    Thanks you all for your replies

    Based on the replies - Futures appears to be a viable alternative to 3x etf.
    Though, i have concerns for long term hold in terms of contract rollover(does not appear automated, therefore requires monitoring) and unlimited liability (if the stop loss and margin call doesnt activate in flash crash etc).
    Any ideas to mitigate this.

    On a side note - one benefit of daily compounding of 3x is that the returns in gently moving up markets are significantly higher than 3x the underlying index. Not sure if futures offer that benefit- but i guess that comes with downside of volatility drag and amplified down maket as well. I still feel this is an advantage of daily compounding especially if one can manage to exit on downmarket (and if volatility drag is not too bad)
     
    #56     Oct 25, 2017
  7. themickey

    themickey

    LOL :)
     
    #57     Oct 25, 2017