Here is a list of accomplishments we have in Iraq

Aaron · Dec 21, 2003

Quote from Maverick74:

Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.
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Huh! That's interesting and something I never knew. In history classes we were always taught that wars had discrete beginnings and endings. "And on such and such a date the Japanese surrendered." The history books then go on to the reconstruction as if hostilities stopped on a dime.

aphexcoil · Dec 21, 2003

Quote from Magna:

And a noble list it is (congratulations for accumulating it since it wasn't in the news). You did, however, leave out one small detail, a throwaway number if you will, and that is the 461 confirmed American soldiers dead (along with 74 other coalition soldiers). All those wives who lost their husbands (Note: I am referring to the male deaths as there have been less than a handful of female soldiers killed), all those many children who lost their fathers, all those brothers and sisters who lost their brother, all those parents who lost their children, all those friends who've lost their friends.
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The last time I checked, service in the United States Military was optional and not a requirement for any U.S. citizen. So while it is unfortunate that people have lost their lives, it is a most unfortunate possibility for anyone who chooses to enlist.

Likewise, how many people are killed each year in the construction industry? Are we supposed to stop building things because some people are, statistically speaking, bound to die once they start performing their job?

How many Iraqi citizens would be brutalized right now if Saddam and his evil regime were still in power? Are you going to make the distinction that one life is more valuable than another?

Pabst · Dec 21, 2003

Quote from aphexcoil:

The last time I checked, service in the United States Military was optional and not a requirement for any U.S. citizen. So while it is unfortunate that people have lost their lives, it is a most unfortunate possibility for anyone who chooses to enlist.

Likewise, how many people are killed each year in the construction industry? Are we supposed to stop building things because some people are, statistically speaking, bound to die once they start performing their job?

How many Iraqi citizens would be brutalized right now if Saddam and his evil regime were still in power? Are you going to make the distinction that one life is more valuable than another?
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Well aphie, you just shot down the duplicity of the "moralistic" liberal argument. To the left, American lives are worth more than Iraqi's, tax dollars are better spent on pay raises for federal employees than for freedom.

It's the same double talk we've heard for years from organized labor. Workers should be paid well for "moral" reasons, but if a corporation exports jobs to developing nations then those in the third world trying to escape poverty are complicate with big business in "stealing" American jobs.

Maverick74 · Dec 21, 2003

Quote from aphexcoil:

The last time I checked, service in the United States Military was optional and not a requirement for any U.S. citizen. So while it is unfortunate that people have lost their lives, it is a most unfortunate possibility for anyone who chooses to enlist.

Likewise, how many people are killed each year in the construction industry? Are we supposed to stop building things because some people are, statistically speaking, bound to die once they start performing their job?

How many Iraqi citizens would be brutalized right now if Saddam and his evil regime were still in power? Are you going to make the distinction that one life is more valuable than another?
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Agreed. Hell, while we are at it, I think we should just remove cops too. I think that profession is way too dangerous. Do you know how many cops are killed each year on the job? What about pilots? Many pilots each year die in plane crashes both commercial and private, I think we should just take the planes out of the air and go back to trains. Oh wait, we can't do that either, there are usually several major train wrecks a year. Well we just have to use cars to travel then. Oh wait, we can't do that either, too many deaths each year in car accidents. Well, we'll just have to do away with mass transportation altogether then.

What about fireman? Man, too many fireman die each year in fires, we can't have this, we'll just let the buildings burn down. It's just not worth it to lose innocent fireman over a stupid building or house. We could go on and on with all these examples. I think everyone get's the point.

Look, most people in the military don't have it that bad. Most of my friends in the service over the years had it a lot better then I did. They got 30k for college. Many of them got 10k signing bonuses. And while they are in almost all their expenses are paid for so they can save a lot of money. Guys this is not a bad deal. If you look at how many of our serviceman have died over the last 30 years it's not even 1%. So the 99% that never see any action or who lose their lives make out pretty nicely. I have friends that left their 4 year stints with with 50k to pay for school. Not bad.

Every life lost is a tragedy but we are ignoring all the other lives lost. The bottom line is the military is OPTIONAL. Does everyone understand this? So is becoming a cop, so is becoming a fireman or a pilot. All these people understand the risks of their occupation. I don't know why so many left minded people on this board have such a tough time with this. If those of you on the left are that worried about lost lives, then get off your f*cking ass and do something about the 20 million unborn innocent children we have killed over the last ten years. Why are you people so f*cking quiet on that issue but you are jumping up and down going nuts because we have lost 400 some odd men in a war.

Yeah yeah I know, you felt as though they didn't have to die because we lied to them and tricked them and we sent them to die for the oil. Blah blah blah. Heard it all before. And you know what, those 20 million children didn't have to be killed either through mass genocide, I mean abortion.

ARogueTrader · Dec 22, 2003

Quote from aphexcoil:

The last time I checked, service in the United States Military was optional and not a requirement for any U.S. citizen. So while it is unfortunate that people have lost their lives, it is a most unfortunate possibility for anyone who chooses to enlist.

Your point is what?

The soldiers either died a necessary death, or not.

The issue is whether or not the war and their subsequent death was necessary, not whether they enlisted or were drafted into military service.

Likewise, how many people are killed each year in the construction industry? Are we supposed to stop building things because some people are, statistically speaking, bound to die once they start performing their job?

Accidents happen to soliders in training exercises too. This is quite different that losing their life in a war that was elective.

How many Iraqi citizens would be brutalized right now if Saddam and his evil regime were still in power? Are you going to make the distinction that one life is more valuable than another?

How many lives are lost via human rights violation in China, Saudia Arabia, Africa, Cuba, Soviet Union, etc. etc. etc.

As we have the power to conquer many countries that have dictators and who have evil regimes that brutalize their citizens, how can you justify our selective efforts? Are the lives of the people in Cuba less valuable than the people in Iraq? Oh yea, Cuba has only sugar cane.....no crude oil.
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candletrader · Dec 22, 2003

We also hunted down and killed around 30,000 Evil Doing Iraqi scumbag Saddam-loving bastids... God Bless America and Israel in the Battle against Evil...

aphexcoil · Dec 22, 2003

Accidents happen to soliders in training exercises too. This is quite different that losing their life in a war that was elective.
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Accidents also happen when fireman, police and just about every other occupation that trains for dealing with dangerous situations and equipment. So what is your point?

How many lives are lost via human rights violation in China, Saudia Arabia, Africa, Cuba, Soviet Union, etc. etc. etc.

As we have the power to conquer many countries that have dictators and who have evil regimes that brutalize their citizens, how can you justify our selective efforts? Are the lives of the people in Cuba less valuable than the people in Iraq? Oh yea, Cuba has only sugar cane.....no crude oil.
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So you are going to use the argument that since we are not attacking all nations with evil regimes, we are not justified in dealing with one? We have troops in Afganistan and Iraq. If we placed our troops in every nation at this point in time, we'd be spread very thin. The reason we are in the middle east is because, last I checked, Cubans weren't flying planes into tall buildings.

spect8or · Dec 22, 2003

Quote from Maverick74:

Look, most people in the military don't have it that bad. Most of my friends in the service over the years had it a lot better then I did. They got 30k for college. Many of them got 10k signing bonuses. And while they are in almost all their expenses are paid for so they can save a lot of money. Guys this is not a bad deal. If you look at how many of our serviceman have died over the last 30 years it's not even 1%. So the 99% that never see any action or who lose their lives make out pretty nicely. I have friends that left their 4 year stints with with 50k to pay for school. Not bad.

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Exactly. The military is pretty damn good deal these days.
Also, some people seem to think a soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Well, it's not. The kind of MOS's that actually see frontline duty, like infantry, for example, are only one part of the armed services. And nobody forces these guys to take these MOS's. They're elective. So, let's look at the motivation of people that do join them. Basically, they're mercenaries. At some level, they want to get out there and fight. A lot of people might find that disgusting, but it's the truth.
Look, I'm human too, and I'm also saddened by the loss of life. I think it's a damn shame that people die in wars. But I'm also a realist. And the reality is very much that war is, contrary to peacenik slogans, sometimes very much the answer. Thankfully, we have enough people that are eager to wage it that we don't have to forcefully enlist people that don't want to.

ElCubano · Dec 22, 2003

Quote from Maverick74:

PROGRESS IN IRAQ

Since President Bush declared an end to major combat
on May 1...

..... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.

..... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

..... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

..... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

..... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

..... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are
open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

..... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

..... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

..... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

..... doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

..... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

..... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million accination
doses to Iraq's children.

..... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

..... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

..... there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

..... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

..... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

..... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

..... the central bank is fully independent.

..... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

..... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

..... satellite TV dishes are legal.

..... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.

.... there is no Ministry of Information.

..... there are more than 170 newspapers.

.... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

..... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

..... a nation that had not one single element -- legislative, judicial or executive -- of a representative government, now
does.

..... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

..... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and
professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

..... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of
government.

..... the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events.

Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN
General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

..... Shia religious festivals that were all but
banned, aren't.

..... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

..... the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the
reconstruction of Iraq.

..... Uday and Qusay are dead -- and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.

..... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

..... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

..... millions of long-suffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual
terror.

..... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

..... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

..... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

..... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for
human rights, for democracy and for peace.

..... Saddam is gone.

..... Iraq is free.

..... President Bush has not faltered or failed.

..... Yet, little or none of this information has been published by the Press corps that prides itself on bring you all the news that's important.

Iraq under US lead control has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII. Military deaths from fanatic Nazi's, and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for over three years after WWII victory was declared.

Just some facts that you never see in the news.
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Prove to me that America is that much safer ( high alert ) and terrorism has been dealt any type of blow and show me the "WMD"......Isnt this why we went to WAR???

Dont get me wrong Mavman...believe me it feels great to have this thug gone and im extremely happy for the Iraqi people, trust me I am.....but nontheless and as bad as this may sound...that wasnt why we went in.......

you like to stay on topic but yet sway far away when talking about this WAR.....please stay on topic...and answer the questions......peace and merry christmas....

ARogueTrader · Dec 22, 2003

Quote from aphexcoil:

Accidents also happen when fireman, police and just about every other occupation that trains for dealing with dangerous situations and equipment. So what is your point?

You brought up the point that soldiers die in battle and construction workers die accidentally. What do the two have to do with each other? The soldiers who die in an elective war do not die by accident, as the war was not a required part of their job.

So you are going to use the argument that since we are not attacking all nations with evil regimes, we are not justified in dealing with one?

Justification seems to be the game you are playing.

We have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. If we placed our troops in every nation at this point in time, we'd be spread very thin.

We are spread very thin, aren't we? One of the reasons that we are actually less safe as a nation right now. Our readiness to combat a real threat is severely diminished.

The reason we are in the middle east is because, last I checked, Cubans weren't flying planes into tall buildings.

Last time I checked, there were no Iraqi's flying into buildings either.

Aphie, you have bought the story hook, line, and sinker. Use your brain man!
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