Dotslash, this is probably the most logical post you have ever made (IMHO) What you say makes a lot of sense. Or at least it is logical. Knowing how car manufacturers think is another thing that may come into play. But giving them the benefit of the doubt, then yes, a car like the Camaro, that has been around so long should be evolved into near perfection (as was the case with the original VW Beetle). But even the Beetle finally had been passed by by time itself. Still, the Camaro is a bit different in that it has had more dramatic evolution than the Beetle did. More technology, more sharing from a huge company rather than just refining a totally unchanged format. And yes, a rear wheel drive car with adequate trunk space, and a convertible option would make a lot of sense for a Florida car. And while my friends do drive Porsches, and I must make amends, the sad news is that Dialing For Dollars has not yet found me My real problem with a GM car is just that my past experiences have, like for so many others, just scared me off. It is sad but true that the quality has for so long just been inferior to Japanese and German cars. I know that American car makers have made great strides in improving quality. But it is still a bit frightening to me that they could manage to design a car from the ground up, make it in a brand new manufacturing facility, and be able to implement the finest thinking and quality control, and come up with the Saturn Kind of shakes my faith a little. The fact that it took Ford to improve the quality of Jaguars sort of puts British cars in perspective. Why are Honda Accords made in America with the same quality as those made in Japan? Same unions, same people, same culture as in Detroit. What is wrong with this picture? Zero financing from GM (every car except Corvette) should and has boosted sales. Truth is I would be open to taking a chance on the Camaro or Firebird despite my doubts about quality, but personal taste just says no for me. Maybe I am just tired of seeing them. They really haven't changed and while nice looking, everything gets "old" after a while. Stylists and advertising have us conditioned to change our perception. A good example to me is the Ferrari 308. Coolest looking car there was when Magnum was driving it in the late 70's. Saw one on the road a few weeks ago, and it actually looked UGLY. (Maybe it was TOO stylish for it's time...whatever, it just did not hold up well). If this is the last year for the Camaro/Firebird, then they could really become collector's items. But that is of no interest to me. Whatever I get, I will not keep. I just need a reliable source of transportation I can enjoy for 3 years. No more, no less. If I wanted a "hobby", I would restore an old Austin Healy. Only drive it on perfect days....no air conditioning, and on the older ones, no top. Or even better.... a Lotus 7. A 1997 Porsche Turbo became an instant classic under similar circumstances. But if that holds any truth for the Camaro/Firebird, then it's only the top of the line that will work with those cars. And they are a bit flashy for my tastes. I don't want kids egging me on to drag race them from every stoplight (of course if they saw how old I was, they would probably laugh at me for being in the car). Back to the '97 Porsche Turbo... still, even though it is a "classic" it is not a car that I lust for. I do like the 97 convertible, but I can't see spending that kind of money for a car with an archaic heating and ventilation system, and a totally spartan interior. Seven years old, and still a lot of money. I got spoiled with the interior luxury of my Lexus .....I admit it. Very nice to have power everything, great instrumentation, and an incredibly comfortable ride when on the highway. Not much fun to drive around town, (not bad though...something to be said about being seated high enough to see what's in front of you), but on the way to and from work, the most important feature is a good sound system....and in a loud car, like a Camaro (or any "hotrodded" car), it doesn't seem to work as well. Also, the practicality of the Lexus was nice. It was my first SUV. Lots to be said for the big "trunk". No better car than an SUV for a golfer (but I could, and probably will struggle with golf bags on my next car...or switch with my wife). BTW, I don't know what it was about the Durango that she loved so much, but the gas mileage is almost criminal. And the thing really does drive like a truck (it IS a truck). Of course if I understood my wife, then the stock market would be child's play. Peace, RS
I would have to sell my house, my two cars, my dog, all my books, my chess set, my computers, my watch, get rid of my wife and daughter, and live in the ENZO. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, [nitro's eyes getting dreaaaammmmy....] JUST KIDDING! Besides, there isn't enough space in the ENZO for eight monitors. nitro
Flexible. I know this is a vague answer (still more specific than any answer you ever gave on a personal issue), but since I lease cars, the actual cost of a car becomes, pretty much irrelevant. Example....when I got my Saab, the list price of the Saab (as equipped) was identical to the list price of the Volvo convertible I was also considering. I mean within $100. But because of factory incentives (to the dealer) and the deal offered to me through Saab Financial (money factor=interest rate), the elevated residual I was able to work out (they really wanted to move the unit that day I guess), and whatever else came into play, the monthly payment on the Saab was a full 20% lower. So that was the deciding factor. Made it easy for me. There were things I liked better about the Volvo (size, sound system), and things I liked better about the Saab (handling, acceleration). So the cost (monthly payment) made the decision easy. Same can and will happen when I decide on a car this month. I will narrow the choices down to a few cars, and let the dealerships make the decision for me. Whoever gives me the "irresistible deal" will deliver the car to me. I have bought and leased a lot of cars. When I am ready, I can make a deal in about 10 minutes. Of course, the dealers don't like that, and will try and stretch it out. But I have my technique, just like they have theirs. What many people do not realize (even though they have experienced it) is that a very big part of the selling side of a car deal is to keep the customer waiting as long as possible. This makes the customer feel like they have invested a lot of time, and are less likely to walk out. This is why you will hear "my manager will be out to speak with you in a few minutes", then it can be the manager's manager, the sales manager, the general manager, etc. They will do anything to keep you on the hook. Even if it means giving someone some bullshit title so you can wait a little longer to speak with the Grande Wizard of the dealership (who may actually be a new hire who's application ink hasn't dried yet), and stuff like that. It can drag on endlessly. It is just how they wear you down. Part of this game dealers play is because they know that after hanging around waiting, your resistance to a "bump" in price is lowered. You don't need to be an expert to see this in action. Anyone who leaves a showroom will be chased down in the parking lot right to their car. (If you are considered a qualified buyer). Like in any game, knowing the "rules" is the only way to be a winner. In my case, what I do is just leave. But before I do, if they have a car I want, I will say, "I will pay $X and you work it out. I will go get something to eat/take a nap/have a root canal/whatever, and I will be back at X 'o clock, and if you have the papers ready, and the car prepped, I will sign. If not, then I will go buy a car at the (other) dealership". So Max, since I am going to lease a car, your "budget" question isn't applicable if you are asking the price of a car. If you want to know what I am willing to spend per month, that is a different question, and one I don't have a ready answer for. I will spend what I can afford in conjunction with getting my money's worth, and my degree of "lust" for the car. The "lust" factor being the weak point of any buyer. Anyone who understands how a closed end lease works will tell you it is more than possible to pay more or essentially the same for a Chevy than a Mercedes if the Chevy dealer is sharper (and a bigger thief) than the Mercedes dealer. And of course it helps if the buyer is just dumber at the Chevy place. But without the thievery and without the lack of sophistication on behalf of the buyer (lease purchaser), the costs can and will seem inequitable on certain cars. Generally speaking, it is more efficient to lease a more expensive car. It is all based on the residual. theoretical example: A $22k Chevy can depreciate almost to zero in 4 years (let's say for this example, it depreciates to 5k) So there is $17k in depreciation that has to be paid for by the "buyer" of the lease contract. So, the payments will be $17k plus "interest" (money factor) over 48 months. Plus sales tax. Next, you have a $50k Lexus, Mercedes, whatever. After the same 48 months, the car is going hold its relative value much better than the Chevy. So is it possible that the more expensive car will also depreciate by $17k? Obviously, anything is possible. So in theory, the lease payment on the Lexus/Mercedes/Whatever will be the same as the lease payment on the Chevy. Even though the retail price of the the car is more than double. When they write a lease, they also can get you with disposition fees, damage allowance (or lack of damage allowance), mileage charges, which may or may not be a factor....if it is a big factor, then a lease is not suitable for those who put on 20k miles a year or more..you can generally get 3 different quotes...10, 12, and 15k miles per year, plus over-mile rate per mile, so it's crucial to know going in how many miles you should anticipate using. So there you have "leasing 101". If I could get Nitro's Ferrari Enzo for $1000 a month I would find the money in my budget. But I would NOT find the $600+ for a Boxster. (In truth, I would be more comfortable in the Boxster, and would feel like an asshole driving a $650,000 car). But that is not the point here. I know that, for example, I can drive out of a dealership with a $700 a month payment on a $35k car, or an $85k car. Lots of factors. Length of term is a major factor. My son's Civic, because it is a 2 year lease is absurdly expensive. But that was something I had to deal with when I got it. I figured he would be off to college as a freshman after 2 years, and I had no use for the car for any longer period of time. So Max, if you take what I paid for my Saab lease, add what I pay for my son's Honda lease, and add again what I pay for the insurance on my son's car (which thank God will end when he goes into the Navy), I could lease a Rolls and come out ahead. But that is not how I am going to do it. I am going to try and economize. Probably end up with a 1981 Plymouth. Pay cash and spend the money I save on getting hookers for Candletrader. Peace, Rs
Max, you are not current.... I just turned in the Saab....haven't you been listening to me bitching about sharing my son's Civic? Anyway, it was a 2000 SE Convertible. Now you can go compare the list prices against that of the Volvo and try to prove me wrong. So predictable. Have fun. Peace, RS
Can't have the boy I have a couple of watches - an el-cheapo coronograph for daily living, and a Raymond Weil (Geneve) Parsifal - a nice dress watch. nitro
Wrong, Bumper Breath! Just giving you an alternative and needed to know a car you were familliar with for you to have a valid reference point. For myself, I always buy used, but I have good contacts in the used car wholesale industry. BTW, did you know that the used car business is well in excess of 300 billion dollars in annual revenue? (Granted, a portion gets counted more than once as it gets sold each wholesale, retail, etc., but each transaction is an actual exchange of money.) Here is a list of some prices from last week at a major dealer auction in Manheim, PA. Personally, I like Mercedes, particularly the S body; partially because I think it's the most "bang for the buck" and secondly because of the car's inherent safety factors. I could care less about mileage. Most of the high-line cars are just as tight with a 100K as they were when new. Gotta factor in some maintenance. 2002.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.4...PS.PB.AC.CV.......12,599...RED.......26,100 2001.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.A...PS.PB.AC.CV.......18,417...PLATINUM..24,500 2000.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.A...PS.PB.AC.CV.......17,402...SILVER....20,900 2000.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.A...PS.PB.AC.CV.......38,061...BLACK.....16,000 2000.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.A...PS.PB.AC.CV.......55,691...BLACK.....13,700 2000.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.5...PS.PB.AC.CV.......25,084...SCA.GRN...18,700 2000.9-3.SE.Turbo.4GT.2DCV.5...PS.PB.AC.CV.......36,343...SILVER....15,100 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..18,294...SILVER....25,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..20,563...SILVER....24,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..27,091...GOLD......23,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..28,670...MIL.SIL...23,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..34,470...WHT.PRL...23,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..39,302...GREY......22,800 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..33,879...BLACK.....22,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..42,537...PEARL.....22,300 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..28,279...MIL.SIL...22,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..27,799...GRAY......22,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..44,955...GOLD......21,900 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..43,690...BLACK.....21,600 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..48,425...SILVER....21,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..38,971...PEARL.....21,400 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..40,002...BLACK.....21,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.MR..4X4..40,141...BEIGE.....21,200 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..36,074...RED.......21,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..44,443...GOLD......20,900 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..36,089...BLACK.....20,800 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..42,098...WHT.PRL...20,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..36,071...BLACK.....20,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..47,922...WHITE.....20,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..42,329...BLACK.....20,700 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..49,589...GOLD......20,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..37,133...GREEN.....20,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..41,756...BLACK.....20,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..47,238...WHITE.....20,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..48,647...SILVER....20,300 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..43,088...SILVER....20,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..34,056...SILVER....20,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..50,081...GLD.PRL...20,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..48,546...GOLD......19,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..48,873...WHITE.....19,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..42,998...GREEN.....19,600 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..49,102...BLACK.....19,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..45,700...BLUE......19,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..55,072...WHITE.....19,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC..........40,979...WHITE.....19,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..59,486...GREY......18,900 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..61,448...SILVER....18,250 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..67,226...GLD.PRL...18,000 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..61,219...GOLD......18,000 2000.RX300........6G..4MPV.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......22,567...MIL.SIL...16,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..39,639.*.GREEN.....16,750 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..68,441...SAGE......16,500 2000.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.....4X4.112,638...BLACK.....14,800 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..52,255...SILVER....17,000 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.....4X4..73,725...WHITE.....16,800 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..41,074...GOLD......16,500 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..45,270...MIL.SIL...20,000 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..48,656...WHITE.....19,500 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..4................4X4..50,882...GOLD......16,600 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..69,177...WHITE.....15,500 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.....4X4..85,277...BEIGE.....15,000 1999.RX300........6G..SUV..A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..81,581...GOLD......14,500 1998.E320W........6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......57,983...SILVER....16,750 1998.E320W........6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......72,355...SMK.SIL...16,400 1998.E320W4.......6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......69,490...BLK.OPL...17,750 1998.E320W4.......6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......81,798...WHITE.....16,000 1998.E430W........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......28,643...BLACK.....19,500 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......25,800...BRI.SIL...50,000 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......45,599...SILVER....44,400 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......34,627...BRI.SIL...44,250 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......25,449...DES.SIL...42,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......34,602...BLACK.....42,250 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.MR.......43,836...GLA.WHT...42,100 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......40,456...BRI.SIL...40,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......49,238...BLACK.....38,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......48,248...BLACK.....38,500 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......38,704...BRI.SIL...37,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......30,639...OBS.BLK...37,250 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......52,032...OBS.BLK...37,000 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......60,434...BLACK.....36,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......70,614...ALMON.BK..36,300 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......70,463...BRI.SIL...36,000 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......62,534...BLACK.....34,750 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......66,592...BLACK.....34,000 2000.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......84,677...BRI.SIL...33,000 2000.S430V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......82,180...BRI.SIL...31,750 2000.S430V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC..........69,238...BLUE......31,000 2000.S430V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......70,672...OBS.BLK...29,250 2000.S430V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......91,003...BLACK.....26,250 2000.S430V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR......128,462...DESS.SIL..25,500 2003.SL500........8G..2DCV.A...PS.PB.AC.CV........5,398...SILVER....91,000 2002.G500.........8G..4SUV.A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4...6,890...BLACK.....56,000 2002.G500.........8G..4SUV.A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..12,893...BLK.OPAL..54,700 2002.G500.........8G..4SUV.A...PS.PB.AC.SR..4X4..46,729...BLUE......45,700 Most Bang for the Buck: 1996.S320V........6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......98,980...BLACK.....13,100 1996.S320V........6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR......124,844...BLACK.....12,250 1996.S320W........6G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......63,527...BLACK.....14,500 1996.S420V........8G..4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR......113,428...SILVER....14,700 1996.S500V........8G..4DSN.A...PS....AC.SR.......78,382...BLUE......17,600 1996.S600V........12G.4DSN.A...PS.PB.AC.SR.......86,103...BLACK.....17,500
RS, I am calling a PC violation on your liberal lawyer wife for driving a Durango. That is an SUV favored by prison guards, oil company execs and hunting guides. She should be ashamed!!!! ps. Tom Daschle drives an Escalade.