Hedging ES with MES

Discussion in 'Index Futures' started by Sekiyo, Apr 30, 2020.

  1. tiddlywinks

    tiddlywinks

    And the thread title and initial posts are about hedging.

    Your "real-time example" which is merely a scale-in relates to hedging exactly how?
     
    #21     Apr 30, 2020
  2. Overnight

    Overnight

    To answer your question...There is no intra spread margin discount between micros and minis. You are on the hook for effectively 2 ES contracts, so...25.5K or so required in your account.

    That is because the initial margin requirement for ES is $13,200. Technically, you could not even initiate a single ES on a 10K account.

    So assuming you had, say, $30K in your account, then no, if your broker follows the standard CME exchange requirements, having 1 ES long vs. 10 MES short (or vice versa) would not violate anything, since you are netting zero on their movements.
     
    #22     Apr 30, 2020
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  3. hafez50

    hafez50


    Somebody brought up why the es is better than the mes because commissions are higher .Hedging the same instrument basically doesn't work. Its a zero sum game
     
    #23     Apr 30, 2020
  4. _eug_

    _eug_

    I know a guy who will hold ES swing trades in the direction of a bigger move but then take out MES for the counter trend impulse moves to profit on those as well and to hedge the position in case the trend reverses. I've seen him go as big as 700 mes contracts against his ES position.
     
    #24     May 1, 2020
    yc47ib, Laissez Faire and Sekiyo like this.
  5. I think this is what you needs to solve - not hedging.

    ES generally isn't a breakout instrument and pretty much always retraces. Try to get in on retraces and not on breakouts or in the middle of moves/trading ranges.

    Practice watching a move and accepting that you missed it. Resist the urge to enter after price already went 5-10 points - because that's the time when the retrace usually comes.
     
    #25     May 1, 2020
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  6. Considering the commission structure on MES vs ES - wouldn't it make more sense to swing trade MES and intraday trade ES?

    It depens on the trade frequency of course, but you really quickly rack up commissions when scalping the MES with a high trading frequency.

    But I do like the idea. I've been thinking about doing something similar, but would possibly do it with the same instrument and two different accounts. 1 strategy which goes for the larger intraday swings, Open to Close, and 1 strategy for scalping smaller moves.
     
    #26     May 1, 2020
  7. virtusa

    virtusa

    On his 10K profit/loss it will make a difference of less than $10 (calculated at the commission rate I pay). That's how "much" it will cost him.

    A 10K loss on 1 ES? I don't know anybroker that will accept that, unless you don't use margin. 10K means a loss of 200 points. Maintenance margin????
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
    #27     May 1, 2020
  8. virtusa

    virtusa


    Before entering just run around the block, and enter then.
     
    #28     May 1, 2020
  9. virtusa

    virtusa

    Can also be better depending on how you trade. If you are compounding, MES generates more profits as you can faster grow your size. The extra growth is much bigger than the more expensive commission you pay.
     
    #29     May 1, 2020
  10. CannonTrading_Ilan

    CannonTrading_Ilan Sponsor

    I asked my fellow broker Joe Easton on his take:

    My understanding is 10 MES vs 1 ES is a viable spread recognized by the exchange. The margin is $0 according to our margin calculator on E-Futures. When trading futures you want to trade less and hold for longer. This allows the market and leverage to work for you, while not allowing the commissions and choppiness to sabotage you. Often trends last 2-3 days and an excellent entry is imperative to hold through the retraces. If you have an excellent entry and do not have the initial margin... using the micros to offset your risk through the close is a great way to keep the ES entry price multiple days. If you do have the margin and there has been a significant move in your direction, you can hedge some of the profits using micro lots at points you expect counter trend move
     
    #30     May 1, 2020
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