Hawking: God did not create Universe

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Free Thinker, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. jem

    jem

    do you understand how incredibly fine tuned the standard model of physics is? yet.
    how many years does it take you to understand that no one thinks that precision is random - if there is only one universe.








     
    #281     Dec 26, 2014

  2. It's not fine tuned and randomness has no place in the discussion. There is nothing random about the physical properties of nature. When will you get through your skull?
     
    #282     Dec 26, 2014
  3. jem

    jem

    1. years of my giving you links and you are still and ignorant troll.
    do you understand that that just recently they found the higgs boson at cern after using over 20 constants tuned to over 20 decimal places... some constants tuned to over 100.
    do you deny science that much?

    http://www.economist.com/node/21558248

    "The constant gardener

    One problem is that, as it stands, the model requires its 20 or so constants to be exactly what they are to an uncomfortable 32 decimal places. Insert different values and the upshot is nonsensical predictions, like phenomena occurring with a likelihood of more than 100%.

    Nature could, of course, turn out to be this fastidious. But physicists have learned to take the need for such fine-tuning, as the precision fiddling is known in the argot, as a sign that something important is missing from their picture of the world."


    2. if you knew what you were talking about you would explain yourself rather giving us troll bullshit answers. you clearly know nothing about the "properties of nature" or you would explain yourself.
     
    #283     Dec 27, 2014

  4. No physicists don't need fine tuning or fiddling. You are lying again. There is no fine tuning or fiddling nor do physicists say such a thing. Maybe one does, so what? He's not saying what you wan't him to be saying. You are deluding yourself again. Lying to yourself AND us.
     
    #284     Dec 27, 2014
  5. jem

    jem

    fc you have an incredible troll power of blocking out truth and calling your educator a liar. its a bit sick... you should see someone.


    The fine-tuned Universe is the proposition that the conditions that allow life in the Universe can only occur when certain universal fundamental physical constants lie within a very narrow range, so that if any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, the Universe would be unlikely to be conducive to the establishment and development of matter, astronomical structures, elemental diversity, or life as it is understood.[1] The proposition is discussed among philosophers, scientists, theologians, and proponents and detractors of creationism.

    Physicist Paul Davies has asserted that "There is now broad agreement among physicists and cosmologists that the Universe is in several respects ‘fine-tuned' for life". However, he continues, "the conclusion is not so much that the Universe is fine-tuned for life; rather it is fine-tuned for the building blocks and environments that life requires." He also states that "'anthropic' reasoning fails to distinguish between minimally biophilic universes, in which life is permitted, but only marginally possible, and optimally biophilic universes, in which life flourishes because biogenesis occurs frequently".[2] Among scientists who find the evidence persuasive, a variety of natural explanations have been proposed, such as the anthropic principle along with multiple universes. George F. R. Ellisobserves "that no possible astronomical observations can ever see those other universes. The arguments are indirect at best. And even if the multiverse exists, it leaves the deep mysteries of nature unexplained."[3]

    History[edit]
    In 1913, the chemist Lawrence Joseph Henderson (1878–1942) wrote The Fitness of the Environment, one of the first books to explore concepts of fine tuning in the Universe. Henderson discusses the importance of water and the environment with respect to living things, pointing out that life depends entirely on the very specific environmental conditions on Earth, especially with regard to the prevalence and properties of water.[4]

    In 1961, the physicist Robert H. Dicke claimed that certain forces in physics, such as gravity and electromagnetism, must be perfectly fine-tuned for life to exist anywhere in the Universe.[5][6] Fred Hoyle also argued for a fine-tuned Universe in his 1984 bookIntelligent Universe. He compares "the chance of obtaining even a single functioning protein by chance combination of amino acids to a star system full of blind men solving Rubik's Cube simultaneously".[7]

    John Gribbin and Martin Rees wrote a detailed history and defence of the fine-tuning argument in their book Cosmic Coincidences (1989). According to Gribbin and Rees, carbon-based life was not haphazardly arrived at, but the deliberate end of a Universe "tailor-made for man."[8]

    Premise[edit]
    The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless fundamental physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[9]

    If, for example, the strong nuclear force were 2% stronger than it is (i.e., if the coupling constant representing its strength were 2% larger), while the other constants were left unchanged, diprotons would be stable and hydrogen would fuse into them instead ofdeuterium and helium.[10] This would drastically alter the physics of stars, and presumably preclude the existence of life similar to what we observe on Earth. The existence of the diproton would short-circuit the slow fusion of hydrogen into deuterium. Hydrogen would fuse so easily that it is likely that all of the Universe's hydrogen would be consumed in the first few minutes after the Big Bang.[10] However, some of the fundamental constants describe the properties of the unstable strange, charmed, bottom and top quarks and mu and tau leptons that seem to play little part in the Universe or the structure of matter.[citation needed]

    The precise formulation of the idea is made difficult by the fact that physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are. The current standard model of particle physics has 25 freely adjustable parameters with an additional parameter, thecosmological constant, for gravitation. However, because the standard model is not mathematically self-consistent under certain conditions (e.g., at very high energies, at which both quantum mechanics and general relativity are relevant), physicists believe that it is underlaid by some other theory, such as a grand unified theory, string theory, or loop quantum gravity. In some candidate theories, the actual number of independent physical constants may be as small as one. For example, the cosmological constant may be a fundamental constant, but attempts have also been made to calculate it from other constants, and according to the author of one such calculation, "the small value of the cosmological constant is telling us that a remarkably precise and totally unexpected relation exists among all the parameters of the Standard Model of particle physics, the bare cosmological constant and unknown physics."[11]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe
     
    #285     Dec 27, 2014
  6. jem

    jem

    Examples[edit]
    Martin Rees formulates the fine-tuning of the Universe in terms of the following six dimensionless physical constants.[12][13]

    N, the ratio of the strength of electromagnetism to the strength of gravity for a pair of protons, is approximately 1036. According to Rees, if it were significantly smaller, only a small and short-lived universe could exist.[13]

    Epsilon (ε), the strength of the force binding nucleons into nuclei, is 0.007. If it were 0.006, only hydrogen could exist, and complex chemistry would be impossible. If it were 0.008, no hydrogen would exist, as all the hydrogen would have been fused shortly after thebig bang.[13]

    Omega (Ω), also known as the Density parameter, is the relative importance of gravity and expansion energy in the Universe. It is the ratio of the mass density of the Universe to the "critical density" and is approximately 1. If gravity were too strong compared with dark energy and the initial metric expansion, the universe would have collapsed before life could have evolved. On the other side, if gravity were too weak, no stars would have formed.[13]

    Lambda (λ) is the cosmological constant. It describes the ratio of the density of dark energy to the critical energy density of the universe, given certain reasonable assumptions such as positing that dark energy density is a constant. In terms of Planck units, and as a natural dimensionless value, the cosmological constant, λ, is on the order of 10−122.[14] This is so small that it has no significant effect on cosmic structures that are smaller than a billion light-years across. If the cosmological constant was not extremely small, stars and other astronomical structures would not be able to form.[13]

    Q, the ratio of the gravitational energy required to pull a large galaxy apart to the energy equivalent of its mass, is around 10−5. If it is too small, no stars can form. If it is too large, no stars can survive because the universe is too violent, according to Rees.[13]

    D, the number of spatial dimensions in spacetime, is 3. Rees claims that life could not exist if there were 2 or 4.[13]
     
    #286     Dec 27, 2014
  7. No, physicists don't need fine tuning or fiddling. There is no fine tuning or fiddling nor do physicists say such a thing.
     
    #287     Dec 27, 2014
  8. If there are a billion universes, that have been around billions of years, and have been bumping into each other every second of every one of those billions of years, it's almost inevitable that this universe you live in will be created. The multi-verse is a nice theory which can explain such phenomena as virtual particles but I find it absurd to support fine tuning.
     
    #288     Dec 28, 2014
  9. Okay, now how do we prove there have been billions of universes bumping into each other for billions of years? Is there one bumping into us right now? If so, how can we tell that it is?
     
    #289     Dec 28, 2014
  10. stu

    stu

    There's no good reason to assume only one big bang happened allowing one universe to form. Infinite false start big bangs varying in parameters, continuously occurring, failing to survive, until one did expand into this universe, trumps any ideas about a need for so called fine tuning.
     
    #290     Dec 28, 2014