Gun Nuts - Gun Haters

Discussion in 'Politics' started by John Q. Public, Oct 31, 2003.

  1. Never has one taken so many words to say that he would no longer have anything to say.

    Perhaps once we pry your hands from your guns, we go after your car keys.
    #31     Oct 31, 2003
  2. Maverick74


    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to posses arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." -Adolph Hitler 1938

    The 1938 Nazi law barred Jews from businesses involving firearms. On November 10. 1938 -- one day after the Nazi party terror squads (the SS) savaged thousands of Jews, synagogues and Jewish businesses throughout Germany -- new regulations under the Weapons Law specifically barred Jews from owning any weapons, even clubs or knives.
    Gun Control's Nazi Connection

    "Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms
    is the goal"--(Janet Reno)

    Here's a question for anti-gun people:

    "Would you be willing to put a sticker on your car window or the front door
    of your house saying 'I am an anti-gun person--there are no guns in this
    #32     Oct 31, 2003
  3. Maverick74


    Gun Control: Myths and Realities
    by David Lampo

    David Lampo is the publications director at the Cato Institute.

    The number of well-publicized public shootings during the past few years, especially the tragedy at Columbine High School, has re-energized the gun control movement. As a show of strength, a coalition of gun control groups has organized a "Million Mom March" to be held in Washington, D.C. on Mother's Day, an event designed to stir up emotions rather than promote rational thought. And when one looks at the facts about gun control, it's easy to see why the anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.

    Think you know the facts about gun control? If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.

    1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.

    False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.

    2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.

    False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.

    3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.

    False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.

    4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.

    True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

    5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.

    False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."

    6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.

    False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

    The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let's hope more people are catching on
    #33     Oct 31, 2003
  4. Maverick74


    Top Ten "Gun-Control" Myths
    MYTH: Most gun deaths are caused by accidents or by crazed madmen.
    FACT: More than two out of every three gun deaths are either suicides or drug-related murders.
    Source: Centers For Disease Control - Deaths 1998 (625KB document!) and U.S. Department Of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics

    MYTH: Twelve children are killed with guns each day.
    FACT: Half of the people that politicians count as "children killed with guns" were actually legally adults. The gun murder rate started falling when crack cocaine started going out of style in 1990. In 1997, 2284 children aged 0-17 years were killed with guns, most of them teenagers. That is 6 per day. In 1998, the number dropped to 1971, still mostly teenagers. That is 5 per day. The age distribution of child gun deaths tracks the age distribution of child drug dealers.
    Source: Centers For Disease Control

    MYTH: The best way to protect children from guns is to keep children ignorant about them.
    FACT: The best way to protect children from guns is to teach them gun safety and lock up guns whenever it is practical to do so. "Ignorance is best" is the old argument against sex-education, reworded by the same people who ridiculed it when it was used by sex-education opponents. With more than 250 million guns in the USA, children will encounter one sooner or later, especially if they live around police, security guards, hunters, or the military.

    MYTH: Trigger locks are the best protection against unauthorized gun use.
    FACT: The best protection against unauthorized gun use is to keep guns in a child-proof burglar-proof safe whenever they are not being used for hunting, self-protection, or target-shooting. Trigger locks do not protect guns from being stolen, and an improperly-installed trigger lock can cause a gun to fire accidentally, especially if the gun is dropped.

    MYTH: The politicians who talk loudest about "gun-control" work hard to prevent gun violence.
    FACT: After demanding passage of the Brady Law, the Clinton-Gore administration prosecuted fewer than 5 out of every 100 convicted felons who violated the law. In 1998 only 102 out of 90,000 were federally prosecuted.
    Source: U.S. Department Of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics, courtesy of US Congressman John Dingell

    MYTH: If guns were illegal, criminals would not have guns.
    FACT: Guns are readily available in China, Eastern Europe, and illegal-drug-producing countries such as Mexico and Columbia. Criminals smuggled 690,000 pounds of cocaine into the USA in the first 6 months of 2000. Thousands of guns can be hidden in 690,000 pounds of cocaine.
    Source: USA Today newspaper, 28 September 2000, page 3A

    MYTH: Mandatory gun registration means all guns must be registered.
    FACT: Because it is already illegal for convicted felons to own guns, the Fifth Amendment protects felons from being forced to incriminate themselves by registering their guns. Any criminal can easily avoid gun registration by committing a felony and getting probation, or by storing his guns at the home of a convicted felon. If his existing guns are confiscated, he can buy more from any drug dealer.
    Source: Fifth Amendment To The Constitution Of The United States and the US Supreme Court ruling Haynes Versus United States

    MYTH: "Gun-control" organizations are run by dedicated volunteers.
    FACT: The president of Handgun Control Incorporated (HCI) makes more than $150,000 per year from gun violence.
    Source: HCI financial filings

    MYTH: The National Rifle Association (NRA) is evil.
    FACT: For several decades the NRA has been working to reduce gun deaths. Their "Eddie Eagle" videos teach young children that when they encounter a gun they should: "Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult." The NRA's magazines are full of advertisements for child-proof burglar-proof gun safes. The NRA-supported Project Exile has reduced gun deaths in Richmond, Virginia by strongly punishing criminals who use guns in crimes. The NRA has selfish reasons to fight gun violence: More gun deaths means more votes for anti-gun politicians and more money for multi-million-dollar "gun-control" businesses such as Handgun Control Incorporated.
    Source: NRA "Eddie Eagle" videotape and American Rifleman magazine

    MYTH: "Gun-control" laws worked in England.
    FACT: After more than fifty years of "sensible gun-control laws," English criminals have more than three million illegal guns, twice as many as ten years ago.
    Source: The Sunday Times newspaper, 16 January 2000, Killings rise as 3m illegal guns flood Britain and The Guardian newspaper, 23 October 2000, US-style gun law comes to Britain
    #34     Oct 31, 2003
  5. Gather round, let me TELL you why we need no more guns in this country.

    I used to lock my gun up at night and kept no ammo in the house, because I didn't want it sneaking out of its gun case, grabbing a brew, becoming a nasty drunk and peering in windows. Most of the time, Pow (I named my gun Pow), we got along pretty good. We took trips out to the desert, popped some brews then popped some caps. He was a jumpy little fella, but most of the time simple disclipine kept him in line. He get out of line, I'd grab the trigger lock and muzzle him up pretty good.
    Yeah there was nothing like being out in the desert, just Pow and I at night when the clouds have graciously parted for the moonlight. The sounds of traffic are drowned out by the sand standing still. The last time we were out there was the last time we were out there. I gave him too much freedom and he liked it, just popping some caps all by himself. I let Pow run free and let him loose to do his inherent action he was born to do. Free will kicks in and he lets loose with fiery torrent which splits the dark with white hot flames. Then the little bastard won't stop, he keeps going and going, he won't stop, the magazine never empties, he is birthing new bullets, I drop him and run for cover behind a rock, the damn thing still won't stop. Something in him has broke, he is not the same 'ole Pow anymore, he's wild, his teeth glinting, he has become a mean son of a bitch and there is nothing I can do to rid of him of this evil he has turned into himself. I run, run, run, the breath my lungs once held BURNS, I'm running from the monster I created, my tears of failure burning more than my lungs from running away from this animal I created.

    That was the last thing I remember of that night. I woke up, two days later in a gully where only prairie dogs pissed. Besides the sun burn, my soul was burned. Knowing I had been witness to the birth of an evil, evil Pow, where weeks earlier I had caressed it with oil and a soft cloth and how it had turned on me in an instant and now Pow is out there with a soul and determination to create evil that only us with free will understand.

    The morale of the story: Keep no guns, because they turn bad all by themselves.
    #35     Oct 31, 2003
  6. How Criminals Get Guns

    by Dan Noyes, Center for Investigative Reporting

    Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said [and most of those being stolen from OTHER than private homes and cars]. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

    In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

    The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

    According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

    The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

    Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

    While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.

    ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."
    #36     Nov 1, 2003
  7. Actually, as seems so typical for you, you completely missed the point.

    I didn't say I would no longer have anything to say. I said that further dialogue on the subject of gun control with someone as demonstrably foolish as you was a waste of time.

    The rest of the comments were obviously over your head.

    But it's OK if you're a little slow. There's a place in this world for everyone.
    #37     Nov 1, 2003
  8. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!! Stop...I'm laughing so hard it hurts.

    That's the most ludicrous thing I've heard...well, since your last post anyway.

    Your ability to expand the boundaries of the ridiculous is truly awesome.

    So now it's not enough that a person lock their guns in a safe when they're away from home. They now have to disassemble them and, what, hide the pieces or store them in DIFFERENT safes?

    And this lunacy would accomplish what exactly??

    Here's a solution, how about we just issue every gun owner a permit to carry - then they can just take their guns with them at all times. :) :) :)
    #38     Nov 1, 2003
  9. I hardly know where to start, but I'll do my best. Clearly the ArchAngel who has spent years posting messages on a wide variety if topics that always came across as measured, insightful, and most importantly, thoughtful, has another side. A crude, and kind of ugly guy. Not much different from most of the morons who frequent this board. But so be it. Life is full of disappointments.

    Maybe I have not made myself clear enough, so I'll try to do a better job. Gun owners seem to be able to see but one class of people on the other side of a firearm - "criminals". And while you may think that I should find comfort in the "fact" that "only" 10 to 15 percent of guns used in crimes are stolen from private law abiding citizens, it really is little comfort to me. I'd be thrilled to reduce my chances of having a bullet rip in to me from your stolen gun by such a percentage.

    But herein lies the problem. The rest of us fear more than the so called criminal. We fear your kid getting his hands on your gun and shooting another one of your kids, or maybe one of mine, or maybe himself. We fear you, a man who has demonstrated what seems to be a radical change in personality even discussing the issue. We fear a domestic argument getting out of hand. We fear your losing it, and shooting up your work place.

    You see, most every night my local news station reports a robbery using a gun, and all too often, the weapon is fired. That makes all of us shake our heads, and just wonder about the world we live in. But far too often there is a story of a spouse shooting a spouse, a sibling shooting a sibling, a neighbor shooting a neighbor, a friend shooting a friend, a co-worker shooting a co-worker - I'm sure you get the picture. It is these stories that send shivers up and down our spines. I have very little fear of being shot by a "hardened criminal". My fear is being shot by someone who isn't a criminal - at least not until he pulls the trigger.

    Would any of the things previously suggested by me eliminate that fear? No, absolutely not. But it might reduce it by 5 or even 10 percent, added to the 10 to 15 percent you spoke of, and now we are starting to get somewhere.

    You still have your guns to fight off the government gone bad, or invading hoards, or who ever it is that you need guns to protect yourself from, and I have a tad more in the way of peace of mind. A fair compromise.

    However, I don't expect you to see it that way, because with your previous posts in this thread, it is now clear that the level headed guy I thought lived behind your handle is a fraud. You are apparently just another one of the many animals in the ET zoo.
    #39     Nov 1, 2003
  10. I don't need a gun because I'm a real man, and can take care of myself without one.
    #40     Nov 1, 2003