I don't get it. Why would a firm be unhappy with someone who is good and is going to be around a while and generate fees? I know nothing about that Tradeco company I mentioned earlier, but it is just something that seems scary. I don't mean to bash them, but maybe it's these fly by night firms which have you so cynical.
I just spent an hour replying to this and then lost it all when it told me the text was too long grrr...had to remove your quotes so my answers are to each of those. Most prop firms will not offer much training. If any firm promises you that you will be making $$$ in x amount of time, run the other way. If you do happen to find a firm that has successful traders willing to mentor/train you, you are very fortunate. Many prop strategies are execution based, and the more people doing them the less profitable they become. SMB is a bit different in that they mainly trade off charts using TA. Also, you won't find too many successful traders who are willing to give you all their hard-earned secrets. Why should they? It sounds to me like you want someone to hold your hand, and you aren't going to find that anywhere. Even through SMB, you are going to pay for all their extra services and I bet many still don't make it. My problem with your posts is that you are lumping most every Canadian prop firm into one pot and saying they are a scam which is not true. Of course every company will have branches/managers that are better than others. It's up to the trader to do his research and find one that is a good fit. - Hope is not a strategy. Either the firm has good traders to learn from or it doesn't. If it does, then it is worth working there. If not, it isn't. The problem is that they ALL say that they do and then once you give them your money and show up, you find out that they lied. Some firms lock up your money for a year. Why would anyone be foolish enough to part with 10K based on hope? You're a trader, you should know better than that. Lol...you don't need to lecture me and be condescending, esp as someone who has tried to help send you in the right direction before. I pmed you a list of people you could contact awhile back, and it sounds to me like you never did. I've been trading for 6 years...I'm pretty sure I know more about prop trading than you do at this point. I don't know too many Canadian firms that lock up your money. Most will want a risk deposit of 3-5k, some 10k. Bright asks for more because their model is completely different. I am willing to bet that most every firm has more struggling traders than successful ones at any given time, and those people won't always be the same ones. Again, just because a firm has good traders doens't mean you will be successful. They aren't going to tell you how to trade, especially with your attitude. Yes, it's something to look for if they allow you to spend time in the office before you join (they should). You want to know that their traders are happy with the management. But it isn't a guarantee of success. If I had no other choices, and the only office I could join was struggling but willing to offer me a good honest deal, I'd be willing to take it and try to do better than 90% of the others. Also, I do not think sim trading is a good learning tool at all. It may teach you the basics, but the psychological elements are removed. "Of course most people don't make it...that's the nature of this business. The firm gives you the OPPORTUNITY and it's up to you what you do with it. Most people just aren't cut out for it." - I can't argue with that. Glad we agree on something You like SMB and they are one of the only firms I can think of that really claims to be top knotch and offers a lot of training and tools. Name me a few Canadian firms that advertise the same way...I don't know of any personally. I like SMB myself, and I have learned a ton from Steven Spencer, but again, I bet lots of people that go through that training (esp if they do so remotely) don't make it. If you have the opportunity to work from their office, that's great. Most Canadians will not be able to relocate and do so...doesn't mean they can't find a great deal through one of the many firms back here. What portion of SMB's income comes from training/selling tools then? I don't know myself, but I bet it's quite substantial. I have tried a few of their tools in the past and they are helpful. The radar is cool but nothing you shouldn't have on your own radar if you do your research every morning and network with other traders (more eyes on the market). Again, I have no issue with SMB and I follow Steven myself on twitter etc, but it's like comparing apples to oranges when you compare them to Title etc. Also, if an office has many great traders they may set the bar higher to join. Doesn't mean you can't get in or that it's a guarantee of success if you do. Can't comment on T3...yes, I like SMB too but I wouldn't necessarily send a newbie there if they had to trade remotely. We both know of one bad Title branch from our other posts. However, there are very successful Title traders right here on ET who have probably made more money than either of us ever will. I do not agree with you that Title overall is a pos. I know of one very good manager here in BC who is with Title (I gave you his contact)...he won't offer training (he only offers remote trading), but he will give you a very fair deal and he is 100% honest. Also, David at head office is a good person to talk to if you want to consider other branches. I have other contacts at Golden, Bright and Hold Brothers (my firm) that I would not hesitate to send anyone to talk to (pm me if you want to). It's up to the trader to do their research, know what they are looking for in a firm, and find one that's the right fit. Obv I am not shilling any one firm. Most every prop firm in Canada focuses on day trading. Some will allow swing trading (Hold, Bright, some Title and Golden branches). I am glad that you are so well-rounded and successful at all of those. Nothing is stopping any trader from opening another account to learn another instrument. Prop firms are not there to teach you how to master every market...they give you an opportunity to make a great living at an exciting career. When I first started at Swift Trade in 2005, I knew nothing about trading or prop firms. I did my research and was pretty scared by all the negative misinformed posts like yours that I read here on ET. There were struggling traders in my branch as well as successful ones, but the managers were honest and forthright about how hard it was to succeed. I was fortunate enough to start back when Swift still covered all my losses till I made it onto the floor. I probably lost a lot. What legit firm would do that???? They did, and I made it back and much more in the years to come, as well as happily handed over more than 50% of my paycheque for quite some time. However, they also gave me all the buying power I needed, low fees so I could actually do my strategy (which they introduced me to), and I got my foot in the door. It was a risk on their part, as well as mine bc I invested a ton of time and energy into it. That's the way it works...the prop model has changed drastically since 2008 and the profit margins for managers are now a lot lower. Trader's get a much better payout when they start, but they also have to put up deposits bc the firms can't afford to risk as much on newbs. If someone is really passionate about learning to trade, many firms still offer them a great opportunity to do so. It's fine to inform newbies and try to prevent them from being scammed, but just make sure you know what you are talking about! Every industry has bad aaples (ie branches/managers), but you can't lump them all into one pot like you are doing.
Steve, what did you use the 5k for? A security deposit or training? A security deposit won't get you anything but an account....sounds like your either at a bad branch or just not doing very well. I've been facing the reality of prop trading for 6 years btw, so my comments come from experience, not bitterness.
Not a bad idea, except then you will get all the people who just couldn't make it blacklisting a particular branch for their own failures. For ones on the whitelist, +1 to jnbadger's post and add Hold Bros, and Title Kelowna.
There is someone I really respect and have learned a lot from that has said a few times that most traders coming in with 5-10k are not only inexperienced, but also need to make an income from that small deposit to support themselves from day 1. This is almost a guarantee of failure. Of course the person that says this is also constantly accused of being a scammer because he charges money for information, so flame away at common sense. Thats what elite traders do after all. I personally have been with 3 prop firms. Every single one of them encouraged me to trade LESS until I was having consistant results. That doesn't fit with the scammer model. Of course at the time I was in the "5k deposit and need an income" category so I didn't listen and killed my account. They say > 90% of traders fail. It would be interesting to see what % fail of those that come in without the need for an income and gratification. Those that are willing to put in hard work and time and have the patience to become good at trading before expecting an income from it. I would expect it to be over 70% at least. Of course it is hard to be able to devote the time needed to trading, and have an income from somewhere else. I haven't figured that out yet lol. BTW I also talked to bright a few years back about opening an account. Specifically I asked if they cared if I traded very little. They said that was fine but pointed out I was undercapitalized. I decided not to make that same mistake the fourth time. If ET is a good sample, 90% of traders coming in are products of a society that provides instant gratification and knows little of mentorship and hard work. This means the firms need a model that protects them from these guaranteed failures and provides a profit at the same time. That is not a scam. It is smart and still provides a service that consumers demand.
Because the core business in these companies are no longer commissions as they once were. Listen, if you've been in the business for 10 years and been making, you're good. In fact you're great because only 1% last that long. Props also need success stories to continue the carrot waving. Guys who consistently make, they're a select group and I'll tell you something else, any backed prop firm would hire you too. In fact, they'll prolly front run you 10x the size alongside you and take your liquidity. LOL. They also love the 99% who lose because it supports their equity curve betting against the herd. The odds seriously favor the house to bet against most it's client accounts, the 90%+. One way they do it is to write options against and try to morally substantiate it as "hedge". But it's not a hedge when they do not share risk and losses with customer traders. It is outright speculation against. Do you seriously think firms in NY with 80 traders in their office at prime location in midtown are paying their rent charging $0.001/share with traders averaging 5000 shares a day.
Find a prop futures firm that is a CME Member Firm. They are not allowed to take trader/employee deposits - only the firm's principals are allowed to risk capital. (google this, the CME publishes the application form and the rules) The CME will independently audit these firms. The trader/employees have to be paid on a W-2 (bummer). Of course, most of these firms are in Chicago, with a smattering in NYC. BTW, this is the way the Chicago prop firms have always operated - the equity prop business model is, of course, a rip. You take this deal because you have an edge and you want to trade stupid size. Problem is, you can make $3M a year, which of course you split with the firm - AND THEN, POST SPLIT, and after commissions, expenses, desk fees and IT support fees, and then paying taxes on ordinary income, you net $400K for the year. Been there, done that. Then you realize that you can take your own money, trade 100 lots, and net in your own personal bank account what you did trading stupid big size for the prop firm. The prop firm will nickel and dime and quarter and half-dollar you to death. If they can think of a charge to saddle you with they certainly will. The firm will make sure that you have paid their complete overhead before they take their split. And it will piss you off to no end. Catered four star lunches, box suites at the Bears, Bulls, Cubs, valet parking, the most expensive real estate lease rates for office space, "IT" support, "ECN" charges, the firm's lawyers and the firm's accountants, and on and on and on. You paid for that MILF secretary and that ridiculous top-shelf Holiday Party. I have helped about a dozen of my clients get these gigs because they were capable and they asked for the favor. It helps to have a strategy that the firm's principals recognize and endorse.
I spend plenty of time helping other people who want to get into trading/sharing things i've learned etc. just like some people helped me when I started and even to this day. Obv we are going to have to agree to disagree bc you don't seem to want to see the other side of the coin. Good though that other people reading these threads can hopefully benefit from hearing both sides. Cheers.