Gosh Darn...

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by tampa, Feb 21, 2003.

  1. tampa

    tampa

    pity the poor pro-war, pro-Bush crowd. Bitterly unhappy with the anti-war bunch, the French, and God knows who else, all they can do is cast aspirations on their foes. Wouldn't you think that they could put on a decent counter demonstration> After all, they tell me that the majority of Americans are in support of Bush - not to mention all of "New Europe>

    I mean, it must be important to them, since they whine morning, noon, and night - but they just can't seem to get off their fat, dumb asses to show support. Hmmm, I wonder why?

    Some guy named Arlo sang in a song once that if you wanted to end war, you had to sing real loud - so don't you have to sing real loud if you want to insure war?

    Maybe there have been no rallies scheduled because everyone knows that only an embarrassingly small number of drooling fools would show up? Could be, what do you think?
     
  2. skeptic123

    skeptic123 Guest

    - There were no protests against French built Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1982, lots of protests against Israel bombing it. Now we know it was a right thing to do, saved lots of american and arab lives 10 years later.

    - There were no pro SDI (Star War) rallies in the 80s, only anti-war anti-Reagan protests. Now we know, it was a right thing to do, it brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union and brought down the Berlin Wall (do Germans still remember?)

    - There were no pro-Kuwait demonstrations in 1991, not even in the Arab world. Only anti-war protests. Now we know it was a right thing to do (the job was not completed though)

    - There were no rallies supporting war in Afghanistan, only anti-war demonstartions. Now we know it was a right thing to do.

    The list can obviously be continued, but the point is you got it all wrong. Drooling fools never learn, drooling fools protest. Smart people just do the right thing.
     
  3. msfe

    msfe

    war is hardly ever the right thing to do - and Osama Bin Laden is still roaming the Hindukush on his donkey
     
  4. skeptic123

    skeptic123 Guest

    You really do not have a clue, do you? You live in your idealistic shell in your idealistic neutral (whatever happens in the world we do not care) country, all you can do is repeat this idealistic "war is bad" demagoguery.

    "War is hardly ever the right thing to do..." Tell it to Kuwaities in 1991 and see what they have to say about it. Tell it to the Kurds who have been oppresed and murdered for god knows how many years. According to among other things German TV report they can't wait for American invasion. This most likely applies to the rest of Iraqi people too. Tell it to the Afghan people, Afghan women who lived under Taliban. Go explain to them that war is no good and therefore they should continue living under ruthless religious dictatorship.

    Tell it to Sough Koreans. We rescued half the country - it became a prosperous democracy, we lost the other half - it became the worst dictatorship in the world. Do you at least understand, that the whole country would be just like North Korea and the war was the only option?

    War is bad indeed unless alternatives are worse. And those who say that war is a last resort are right too. It is just that we are already there.
     
  5. msfe

    msfe

    skeptic123:`Tell it to Sough Koreans. We rescued half the country - it became a prosperous democracy´

    why don´t you turn the USA into a `prosperous democracy´ first - before you `rescue´ the other half and the rest of the world ?


    `In my opinion, there is consistency in American thinking, whether we like it or not. As in all cases where inordinate power falls in the wrong hands, there is great risk for all, including those that wield the power. So, we now see a rather naive US president who believes that this power could be used to achieve Don Quixotic objectives, such as democratization of Iraq, total elimination of WMD, security and peace for Israel, etc. I am careful not to mention any objectives that are attributed to G.W. Bush that he himself did not mention, but I am sure that they exist...

    If we agree with the above, it is evident to me that we are forced to build up a counterweight to American power. The funny thing is that it will probably be very beneficial to America to have such a counterweight, because the moderate forces within America will be strengthened, and a more world-friendly attitude will make life easier for Americans, as people and as institutions. Believe me, it is difficult to be American these days. I heard that there is a rush of Greek Americans to the Greek consulates to obtain Greek passports, to which they are entitled per long-standing dual citizenship agreements between Greece and the US.´

    http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?14@202.1202axxJ3u0.1948825@.f30895d/5646

     
  6. skeptic123

    skeptic123 Guest

    Let me get it straight. The author recognizes that US objectives are good and noble - democratization, elimination of WMD, security and peace. Than he goes on to say, "Let's oppose it, we must prevent it from happenning". Way to go herr peacenik! How about helping us (US) use the powers to actually democratize, eliminate and secure... Did not occur to anybody, did it?
     
  7. That's what I thought. You people oppose the US just for the sake of opposing, not because of any logical reason.
     
  8. msfe

    msfe

    skeptik123 & buzzy2,

    why didn´t you refer to the most important part of the NYT forum´s quote?

    `So, we now see a rather naive US president who believes that this power could be used to achieve Don Quixotic objectives´

    is it because you never heard of Don Quixote, Cervantes´Man from la Mancha, one of the greatest pieces of world literature ever written ?

    http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/cervante.htm

    http://encyclopediaoftheself.com/classic_books_online/1donq10.htm



    In this song, Quixote explains his quest and the reasons behind it ... in doing so, he captures the essence of the play and its philosophical underpinnings. (For me, it is absolutely magical.)

    To dream ... the impossible dream ...
    To fight ... the unbeatable foe ...
    To bear ... with unbearable sorrow ...
    To run ... where the brave dare not go ...
    To right ... the unrightable wrong ...
    To love ... pure and chaste from afar ...
    To try ... when your arms are too weary ...
    To reach ... the unreachable star ...

    This is my quest, to follow that star ...
    No matter how hopeless, no matter how far ...
    To fight for the right, without question or pause ...
    To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause ...

    And I know if I'll only be true, to this glorious quest,
    That my heart will lie peaceful and calm,
    when I'm laid to my rest ...
    And the world will be better for this:
    That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
    Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
    To reach ... the unreachable star ...


    Why do you do the things you do?
    Why do you do these things?
    Why do you march through that dream that you're in --
    Covered in glory and rusty old tin --
    Why try to be what nobody can be

    And what do you want of me?
    What do you want of me?

    Why do you do the things you do?
    Why do you do these things?
    Why do you rush at the world all alone --
    Fighting mad battles that aren't your own --
    Why do you live in a world that can't be

    And what do you want of me?
    What do you want of me?

    Why don't you know that you're laughed at wherever you go?
    But I ... cannot laugh with the rest ... and why, I don't know ...

    Why do you do the things you do?
    Why do you do these things?
    Why do you batter at walls that won't break?
    And why do you give when it's natural to take --
    Where do you see all the good that you see --
    And what do you want of me?
    What do you want of me?

    http://homepages.together.net/~donutrun/quix.htm#Dream
     
  9. Actually I have read Don Quixote the original version "en el idioma de Cervantes".

    And there is nothing imaginary about terrorists from al-qaeda, from the colombian FARC or whatever and Saddam's threats to the US, the rest of the world and Iraq's people.
     
  10. tampa

    tampa

    This would be laughable, were it not meant to be serious...I want to barf...

    But let's go over a few of America's alleged good deeds...

    Korea - it had nothing to do with saving South Korea for Democracy - it had to do with the absurd "Domino theory".

    Kuwait - George the First at first said it was to restore democracy to Kuwait, until reminded that Kuwait was anything but a democracy. He then sold it as protecting America's "right" to middle eastern oil - that did the trick, not restoring democracy.

    Afghanistan? No one in this country gave a crap for the oppressed Afghanistan people, let alone the women..we were pissed at the terrorist camps - period.

    Rewrite all the history you care to, but it does not change the facts. We "care" about the oppressed when it otherwise suits OUR purposes.

    So Big Boy, when are you and George going to dream that impossible dream and free the oppressed people of China? Or do you only dream impossible dreams against defenceless nations with oil, or some other American need?

    You make me sick.
     
    #10     Feb 22, 2003