god told me to post this here

Doubter · Nov 7, 2003

Most atheists believe that Christianity teaches Christians to ignore the facts and base their entire lives upon some sort of touchy-feely kind of "faith." Contrary to that view, the Bible teaches the importance of knowledge and wisdom and making rational decisions based upon the facts. The Bible challenges believers to "Test everything" and "Hold on to the good."1 God Himself in His revelation to Isaiah stated, "Come now, and let us reason together..."2 The very reason why atheists attack Christianity above all other religions is because Christianity directly challenges the atheist's assertion that belief in God is irrational.

Contrary to what many non-believers think, the Bible does not teach blind faith. In fact, the Bible actually tells believers to test everything.1 No other "holy" book tells its readers to actually put what it says to the test. The Bible can make such a statement because it passes the tests of truthfulness that no other "holy" book can. God Himself in His revelation to Isaiah stated, "Come now, and let us reason together..."2 God, the Creator of humans and human reasoning ability3 wants us to use that ability to determine His plan of salvation. How do we determine if the Bible is true? We test it and see if it is reasonable. Psalm 19 tells us that the universe "declares the glory of God" and that this "voice goes out into all the earth."
Richard Deem
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ShoeshineBoy · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Logical inconsistencies all have their basis in individualism. It would make sense that universalism, as you call it, would lead the logicians to apply their perspective to the concepts that one can appear as many.

The classic statement of a logician about the world is that it is not possible for it to be raining and not raining at the same time and place.

However, since God is everywhere at every particular time, from that perspective it is possible to have the co-existence of opposite values. As I have stated before, God's world is the exact opposite of this world.

The intellectual and purely relativistic mind just runs like a nervous hamster on a cage wheel when you discuss some of these abstract concepts.
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That's still standard universalism (which is quite popular in America). The general idea is that at the core of all religions is a set of underlying values (faith, love, etc.) that please God or the Higher Power, etc. The basic idea is that God ignores all the extraneous stuff and looks at the person's "heart" and if he/she is following this inner core of universal principles, then all is well.

But there are many HUGE assumptions to universalism including:

1. God or the "Higher Power" created the universe and chose not to communicate directly with those on the earth but left them to try to discern the inner "core" of beliefs.
2. Religious beliefs (outside of the "core") have little or no consequences.
3. Religious beliefs (outside of the "core") do not matter to God.
4. There are no spiritual beings behind regional and local religions.
5. The inner "core" can be defined and followed in a meaningful way w/o direct instruction.

ARogueTrader · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

That's still standard universalism (which is quite popular in America). The general idea is that at the core of all religions is a set of underlying values (faith, love, etc.) that please God or the Higher Power, etc. The basic idea is that God ignores all the extraneous stuff and looks at the person's "heart" and if he/she is following this inner core of universal principles, then all is well.

But there are many HUGE assumptions to universalism including:

1. God or the "Higher Power" created the universe and chose not to communicate directly with those on the earth but left them to try to discern the inner "core" of beliefs.
2. Religious beliefs (outside of the "core") have little or no consequences.
3. Religious beliefs (outside of the "core") do not matter to God.
4. There are no spiritual beings behind regional and local religions.
5. The inner "core" can be defined and followed in a meaningful way w/o direct instruction.
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I have little interest in creed and dogma made by man. My faith is in God directly, not in man's understanding of God and what his particular opinion may be.

People of different religions argue, people who just love God the supreme have no argument with other's opinion. I don't disagree with any religion that is a religion of God the supreme, they are all under the same roof.

In the same way, it would be silly for a kindergartner to argue with a high schooler, they have different levels of knowledge and understanding....but what they both have in common is they are both in school.

Bolts · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from ARogueTrader:

I have little interest in creed and dogma made by man. My faith is in God directly, not in man's understanding of God and what his particular opinion may be.

People of different religions argue, people who just love God the supreme have no argument with other's opinion. I don't disagree with any religion that is a religion of God the supreme, they are all under the same roof.

In the same way, it would be silly for a kindergartner to argue with a high schooler, they have different levels of knowledge and understanding....but what they both have in common is they are both in school.
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Doesn't it bother you to think that you could believe in anything with that kind of attitude? Pink unicorns for example?

ShoeshineBoy · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from ARogueTrader:

I have little interest in creed and dogma made by man. My faith is in God directly, not in man's understanding of God and what his particular opinion may be.

People of different religions argue, people who just love God the supreme have no argument with other's opinion. I don't disagree with any religion that is a religion of God the supreme, they are all under the same roof.

In the same way, it would be silly for a kindergartner to argue with a high schooler, they have different levels of knowledge and understanding....but what they both have in common is they are both in school.
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That's my point though. You're fine with it, but how do you know you're right?

Why do you think, for example, that "faith" is the universally recognized attribute that God is looking for? Is that based on your gut feel or what you would do if you were God or what? If you throw out all supernatural experiences and all organized religions, how do you have any idea what God wants?

It's just you making up your own religion at that point...

axeman · Nov 7, 2003

Nice dodge.

You completely ignored MY example which shows
a clear contradiction, and instead made up your own example.

Now go back and address MY example.

My proof stands. I think it is GLARINGLY obvious that
two people can faith contradictory things.

Make up all the excuses you wish, but it remains true.

You have FAILED to resolve this issue.

peace

axeman

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Again what you see as inconsistency is not inconsistency of faith, but inconsistency of the intellect.

Say there are two boys who go to the same school. The begin talking one day about their respective fathers.

Boy A says: "My father is better than your father."
Boy B says: "My father is better than your father."

The boys naturally fight, as is their human nature to fight to try and prove who's father is better.

Who is right?

Well, in this example neither is really right as they actually have the same father. Their father is a polygamist who has two separate families who do not know of each other's existence.

One boy may know one side of the man who is the father, and the other boy may know another side of the man who is the father. In fact, those two sides may be completely different in appearance, as the man is living two separate and distinct lives. In one family he is a very strict disciplinarian, and appears mad all the time. In another family, he appears loving and joyful all the time. So the boys describe their father according to their understanding of him...but they are not able to know the entire story of their father.

When I use the word God, I mean God the supreme. God the supreme is the highest, the greatest, the most loving, the most of everything etc. There is nothing beyond God, and God is beyond everything that is relative in nature. God is absolute. That is the definition. Can you grasp that concept?

So, if a man practices faith in God the supreme, it is by his faith that he will come to know God, and as his faith deepens he knows God more and more until such time that his faith is 100% and perfect in nature.

If two people are worshiping God the supreme in their own style, or worshiping God the supreme in two very diverse forms, their intellect may become confused and think their God is better than or different than someone else's God, but if they both worship God the supreme they are both right in a relative sense and wrong in an absolute sense, as they are seeing only one aspect not God in His entirety.

It is not faith that causes the problem, it is the intellect that has a need to think in a style of better or worse than. Faith has nothing to do with that process.

The love boy A felt for his father was equal to the love boy B felt for his father, and they both knew some things about their father, they simply did not know everything about their father, and their intellect was compelled to act as the intellect does, either superior or inferior is the normal way of functioning of the intellect. The intellect is constantly comparing and contrasting everything, categorizing everything, in its never ending search for perfection in an imperfect world.

Had they chosen to simply love their father and be filled with that love, they would not have cared about what anyone else's father does or who he is. That is not the fault of their father, that is their human nature and their limited intellect.
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ARogueTrader · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from Bolts:

Doesn't it bother you to think that you could believe in anything with that kind of attitude? Pink unicorns for example?
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I don't understand your question. I practice faith in supreme God. If you describe the characteristics of a pink unicorn, and those characteristics are: eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, having no opposite...then you are describing God the supreme.

If you describe a pink unicorn as a being of limited nature, then that is not the supreme God.

Could God appear to someone as a pink unicorn? I don't know why not.

ARogueTrader · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

That's my point though. You're fine with it, but how do you know you're right?

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How do you know that you aren't dreaming right now, as you are reading this?

ARogueTrader · Nov 7, 2003

Quote from axeman:

Nice dodge.

You completely ignored MY example which shows
a clear contradiction, and instead made up your own example.

Now go back and address MY example.

My proof stands. I think it is GLARINGLY obvious that
two people can faith contradictory things.

Make up all the excuses you wish, but it remains true.

You have FAILED to resolve this issue.

peace

axeman

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Your proof stands as it relates to anything that is material and relative, but doesn't relate to supreme God.

Two people can have faith in contradictory things, but God is beyond contradiction. Contradiction is a condition of relativity, not absoluteness.

Those who do not practice faith in supreme God have an intellectual issue, not a faith issue.

Right tool, right job, right application.

Doubter · Nov 7, 2003

An atheist was taking a walk through the woods. "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!," he said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. His heart was pumping frantically, and he tried to run even faster. He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the atheist cried out, "Oh my God!" Time stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"

The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps could you make the BEAR a Christian?"

Very well", said the voice. The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. Then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke. "Lord, bless this food which I am about to receive and for which I am truly thankful."
Anonymous
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