God is...

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by studentofthemarkets, Jul 3, 2021.

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  1. Baron

    Baron ET Founder

    There are some problems with your balance analogy. First of all, activities that you do in this life like eating bacon, arguing, and making money are all done within the context of this life. But you can't balance your existence in the way you are describing by having a little bit of time on earth, and then having a little bit of time in heaven, and then heading on back to earth for a while so you can get some "good" instead of being saturated in so much "great" up in heaven. Second, heaven is eternal so no matter how you look at it, staying here on earth for another couple of decades (not the funnest times as you get old) is a drop in the bucket compared to the eternity you're going to be part of once you get to heaven. It's like your existence on earth in terms of time spent here is like comparing a grain of sand to something infinitely massive like the size of the universe. There's no balance of time spent between the two.

    You mentioned a theme park earlier, so here's a better analogy. You tell your children that you've decided to take them to Disney World in Orlando. After you tell them, the kids get instantly excited but then you drop this choice on them: "We know our time at Disney is going to be amazing in every way. The only thing left to decide is how we are going to get there. Would you kids like to walk there, ride horses there, drive our car there, or fly on a jet there? Since we live in Washington State, walking to Orlando could take months, riding our horses will take weeks, driving there will take about a week, and flying there will take about 5 or 6 hours." Which travel method do you guys want to use?"

    Obviously, you know where I'm going with this. Even if you were scared of flying, if you've got a car in the driveway nobody says, "Let's just walk to Disney." When a child (or an adult) has the option of having an amazing experience, they are motivated to go there now and via the fasted method of travel possible. And that behavior pattern of taking the paths of speed and least resistance is demonstrated in life and nature with almost a limitless number of examples.

    But nope, not with religion. Believers have somehow got to curve fit some strange logic they would never otherwise use to make it all work:

    "I know Jesus died for my sins, and I know that being absent from my body is instantly being in Heaven with the Lord in all of his Glory! But... I'm just not motivated in any way whatsoever to get there to see Him or be a part of the heavenly experience, so I'm fine waiting around for decades for the trip to begin. I'd much rather hang around here on earth for now and deal with Covid and every other hardship that comes my way."

    Makes zero sense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    #891     Jan 22, 2022
  2. Baron, if you believed in Heaven which apparently you do not?, would you want to hang yourself in your garage in your home tonight knowing you were leaving your wife and kids behind to deal with it just so you could go to Heaven right now? Doesn't that sound kind of selfish? Trying to go to Heaven before one's time is totally selfish in my opinion.

    I doubt if anyone in their right mind wants to leave loved ones behind when they die especially if one has more loved ones here on Earth vs in Heaven.
     
    #892     Jan 22, 2022
  3. I see that userque has answered this in a really, really great way. I agree with his answers on this. :D
     
    #893     Jan 22, 2022
    userque likes this.
  4. Paul knew exactly what you are talking about:

    I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
    Philipians 1:23, 24​
     
    #894     Jan 22, 2022
  5. Baron

    Baron ET Founder

    Paul was sitting in a prison cell when he wrote Philipians, which right there goes to show that even the greatest evangelist the world has ever known would rather spend his life in a prison cell than end his suffering immediately and be with Christ in heaven today.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    #895     Jan 22, 2022
  6. Baron

    Baron ET Founder

    You're not thinking it through. You're going to leave loved ones behind no matter when you die. Whether you choose to die now or wait until it just happens, you're leaving loved ones behind. In fact, you're leaving everyone behind, whether they love you or not.
     
    #896     Jan 22, 2022
  7. "which right there goes to show that even the greatest evangelist the world has ever known would rather spend his life in a prison cell than end his suffering immediately and be with Christ in heaven today"
    Right. Paul believed that his time spent here on earth was helpful to others. He believed he could make a difference in their lives. He was actually addressing this to Christians, so evangelism wasn't really his focus in this passage. Christians spiritual growth seems to be what he is referring to because in the next sentence he explains that his staying will result in:

    ..."your progress and joy in the faith."
    Philippians 1:25
    BSB
    Paul wanted to be with Christ but was willing to wait for heaven so that he could be of good to others for the remainder of his life.


    Right, we will always be leaving loved ones behind when we die, but think of it like this. Would a mom with young kids say it doesn't matter when she dies, when they are young or in 20 years when they are older, because either way she's going to be leaving them behind?

    No. A mom with young kids is going to say she needs to be there for her kids, and she'll make every effort to do what she can to be there for them.

    I think it's the same with what Paul is saying. He knew God had called him in a special way to reveal God's truths to people, he saw how God had blessed his ministry, and wanted to continue to be used by God to help others come to know God further. This wasn't a selfish desire on Paul's part, it wasn't for his own fame or for money. It was a sincere belief, as other places in the New Testament record, that Jesus had personally revealed Himself to Paul for the purpose of using him to bring others into relationship with Jesus. It is Jesus focused, not man focused.
     
    #897     Jan 22, 2022
  8. themickey

    themickey

    Prayer: Is not something special or unique to Christians because they believe it works.
    All religions use prayer.
    Muslims, Buddists, North American Indians, Australian Aborigines, Ancient Roman Pagans, the Jews, Ancient Egyptians, Hindus, every nation on earth and every religion since the beginning of time.
    But somehow Christians think it is only in their domain that prayer is a form of communicating which brings results.
    Why would any religion have as their mainstay, prayer, if they didnt believe it works?
    Every pagan religion has prayer they believe which works otherwise they wouldn't practise it.
    So for christians to claim prayer works or is a means to communicate with the spiritual - boring - next....! :)
    Christians are brainwashed to believe prayer is unique to them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    #898     Jan 22, 2022
  9. userque

    userque

    That's not my analogy.

    My analogy is that just as the non-believers balance their wants and desires on Earth. Believers do the same, they just include Heaven/Kingdom, and have only two things to balance when it come to Heaven/Kingdom, when to leave Earth if given the option; which, puts the fulcrum of the balance somewhere.

    I'd also like to note that that is just one possibility as to why believers aren't committing suicide by the millions in order to, as they may believe, enter Heaven/Kingdom. (I now see you address another possibility or two below.)
    Again, that's not the analogy.

    If they had two favorite ways to travel, then they could balance between the two.

    If their favorite way to the theme park is 'the fastest,' then that's the way they'll choose everytime.

    Let me remind everyone:

    The original premise is that the believer is torn between two or more desires/loves ... the family on Earth, and the afterlife, for example.

    Your travel example doesn't compare two favorite modes of travel.
    Refuted above
    Explained in my previous posts with several examples as to why individuals may make individual decision not to commit suicide nor to voluntarily let themselves die.
    Just as you said believing doesn't make something true. People not understanding a subject-matter doesn't make it false.

    I gave you multiple reasonable reasons as to why a believer may not want to die, even while believing doing so would land them in Heaven/Kingdom.

    You refuted some of them.

    I explained, very simply and succinctly, how your rebuttal analogies are not equivalent; and am prepared to defend those explanations, should you choose to argue against them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    #899     Jan 22, 2022
    studentofthemarkets likes this.
  10. userque

    userque

    Additionally:

    As I've stated, non-believers like to judge believers under different, unfair metrics.

    • non-believer doing sin, no discussion.
    • believer doing sin or something "weird," they must be brainwashed or hypocrites.

    There is no way to observe sinful actions of a believer, and know for certain that the action would also have occurred had the believer never converted.

    IOW, the sinful action may have had nothing to do with them being a believer; and everything to do with their way of living BEFORE converting.

    Being a believer does not imply perfection.
    Are non-believers perfect?
    Yet, non-believers judge believers under this perfection metric.

    I submit that non-believers would have a greater impact on the world by trying to stop the sinning and brainwashing of their own.

    There's are good reasons wise men have said stuff like:

    [​IMG]

    Have we seen any evidence in our country that he was correct yet? :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    #900     Jan 22, 2022
    studentofthemarkets likes this.
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