What is your definition of evil? So Satan was evil because he GOT PERMISSION from God to devastate Job. And when God slew all the first-born of Egypt to punish them for what they did to the Jews is NOT evil? Jehova is a confused God, as are the people who follow the Torah and try to interpret the ramblings of 5000+ YO people who were drunk off their ass on wine, because let's face it, back then, there was nothing better to do but get drunk.
That is true! Especially seems to be true among Christians! Well, to your credit, even though it is simple to trust in Jesus to be saved, there isn't a formula given and no prayer to be copied in the Bible. In fact, Jesus says, You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. John 3:7, 8 My personal experience was that I understood more the more I questioned my own salvation experience and studied the Bible about it. In fact, although I think I know when I was saved, it is possible that my understanding and true salvation came years later. I kept thinking that it doesn't hurt to ask again....and surprisingly, although I am much more solid in my faith, the turnings of my heart to look to Jesus as my Savior are still what leads my worship of Him each day. Only instead of asking for Him to save me, just in case He hadn't already done so, I tell Him thank you for the sacrifice He made for me. And something else to think of too. As believers we continue to struggle against sin and we give into a variety of sins: unforgiveness toward others, angry outbursts, disrespect toward authority or people in general, laziness, pushiness and lots of other sins are all things I personally give in to. 1 John 1 is a passage that can really help with understanding how to deal with sin in the life of a believer: First to notice is that it is that Jesus' blood continually cleanses us from sin. I personally interpret that as a cleansing positionally, that there is no eternal judgment for those sins: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7 Soon after comes an often quoted verse on confessing our sins. My understanding of this is that confessing simply means agreeing with God on the matter. Literally, to say the same thing about current sin in my life that God says about it. So, if I'm struggling to forgive a friend, then I should own up to that struggle and tell God about it and say that it is wrong for me to be unforgiving and ask His help in the matter. The verse is 1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. My understanding of the verse above is that confessing to God my failures restores me to a relational fellowship to God. I see this as separate from a positional relationship with God. Positionally, as being sealed by His Holy Spirit, I belong to His family and sin does not affect that relationship. However, sin does affect the relational aspect, just as a disobedient kid can expect his dad to correct him or perhaps pull away from him for a while, but it doesn't affect the permanency of being in the family. My understanding of this verse also is that the "If we confess" is better read in the greek as an ongoing action, almost like saying "Since we are confessing our sins" and the forgiveness then is given not because we confessed to get the forgiveness, but because we are in Jesus, God is justified to be forgiving all of our sins. I have to say though, that it took me years to come to my understanding of 1 John 1. Yes and no. I do believe that once one has been genuinely saved, there is nothing that can take away that eternal life they were give, and nothing that will remove the Holy Spirit from His sealing of them. However, if someone is in a state of unbelief and they formerly believed, I would think it is likely that they never had believed, to use your words, in the "necessary" way. There are forms of "belief" that are true belief. Consider these words from John 2 showing a type of "belief" that did not result in salvation: 23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people.25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person. The above passage doesn't say exactly what was wrong with their belief, but I suspect it might have something to do with what Jesus had a problem with a few chapters later, that they wanted the signs and not salvation from sin: Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. John 6:26 Although salvation is instantaneous, the process of an unbeliever coming to that saving faith can be a very long one. The Scriptures encourage unbelievers to seek these things out: so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. Acts 17:27 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near. Is 55:6 Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts. Hebrews 3:15 I do admit that there are a few verses in the Bible that do talk about those who fall away and sometimes it would appear as though they had actually been believers at one time.
Interesting. I believe there is salvation; and there are rewards. Salvation is based upon true belief. And rewards are based upon acts/omissions. All of us will not have the same amount of rewards during the millennium. I'm not aware of anything that says salvation is available to unbelievers, if they once believed. I agree that some may mistakenly consider themselves believers, when they really and truly don't believe. But I believe that free will gives us the ability to change our beliefs, as we can do with any other topic or subject. This happens every time we learn something new. We believed one thing, then later believed something different. I'm sure Satan once was 'good,' and onboard with the will of God ... but later changed his beliefs towards God. I don't think he'll be judged on how he used to believe. It only makes sense that salvation is based on current beliefs, not beliefs that are no longer present in the individual.
Evil can be thought of as darkness. Darkness as a representative of evil can be contrasted with light so that it is true to say that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Going a bit further, if God is only light, and light is representing only that which is good, then where did evil come from? Is it possible that God did not create evil? If evil is all that is contrary to God, then I would reason that God did not create evil. My understanding is that since God is all knowing, God knew that evil would originate. It seems, from what is told in Scriptures, that evil originated with Satan. Here is one passage that seems like it is retelling the first occurrence of evil: 12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” Is 14:12-14 In this passage it would appear that the first appearance of evil was when Satan (as he is called in other passages) said in his heart that he would make himself to be like God. Jesus even said that Satan is the originator of lies and I believe His reference to being a murderer from the beginning may have meant that at the beginning of the human race he "murdered" our parents by tempting them to rebel against God. It also might apply to the rebellion that apparently had taken place before that when Satan convinced 1/3 of God's angels to rebel with him. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 The timing of this next verse, if Revelation is to be taken literally, is still in the future. It would appear that Satan is active on this earth but still has some access to God. At a future time that will be taken away and he will wreak even greater havoc on the earth. This will culminate with Jesus returning to put an end to the mess and that's when the 1,000 years of Jesus reign over the earth begins. The verses from the Old Testament that support this are the same ones that Jews today use when they talk of the Messiah's kingdom. 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Revelation 12:7-9
[QUOTE="Overnight, post: 5466821, member: 494466"So Satan was evil because he GOT PERMISSION from God to devastate Job.[/QUOTE] Well, I wouldn't word it that way. Because there is an ongoing battle between Satan and God, Satan challenged God that Job was only obeying God for personal gain. He said that if everything was taken from Job that Job would curse God. God ended up winning the argument. Job never cursed God. He did however, curse the day he was born and Job really struggled with why God was bringing all these things upon him when he had always served God.
God is the giver and taker of life. It is never wrong for God to take a life. Remember, God warned Adam and Eve that the result of their disobedience would be death, and the wording of the phrase used has the idea of "dying you shall surely die." All people are rightly judged worthy of eternal death. God is righteous in His judgment. Now, I personally don't like that one bit. But then, when you think about it, there is absolutely nothing to like about evil and the judging of evil. It is all that is contrary to what is good. God would still be good if he had never provided a way of reconciliation with Himself. He does not owe us the right to be restored to Himself. God never offered reconciliation to the angels who rebelled. But the only way that God's holy wrath at evil and rebellion could be satisfied was for judgment to take place. That is why the Old Testament places such an emphasis on blood sacrifices for atoning for sin. And that is why in the New Testament Jesus is revealed as God Himself who suffered in our place. He didn't have to, and He doesn't owe salvation to anyone. But God does want people to be saved. Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
The first death is merely a transition. We're the one's that make a big deal about it, especially those of us who believe that there's nothing more after the secular death. Many (especially non-believers) project this false understanding onto God, and are angry and confused as to why "innocent" people die "prematurely."
What it all boils down to, is that the human mind cannot simply accept the fact that when we die, there is nothing left of our identity. Just as how before we were born, there was no identity. The Godhead in every culture on this miserable little planet is an attempt to reconcile our existence with non-utility. And we have none. They have been trying it for 10s of thousands of years, and this is the best we can come up with. Become a mature human, and understand that you do not have a "soul" or "everlasting" whatever.
Right, because God created us to live eternally. If we weren't in a rebellious state, we would have an eternity to enjoy life and relationships and God Himself. Well, that does kind of fit in with the Biblical teaching that originally man knew His creator and then as people didn't like what they knew, they changed the truth to their own ideas. If you study some ancient histories, some cultures actually have creation views that have resemblances to the Genesis account, and some have stories of their ancestors surviving a flood on a boat. This would seem that although they once had the truth and it was corrupted. Well, can you prove that there is no everlasting life? Although I have no way to prove it either, I can prove the reliability of the Bible. It would be interesting to me to find some of those ancient stories that resemble the Genesis account and post them here. If I have time I might do that.
There is a line I recall, and I am paraphrasing here... Given enough time, an incident becomes a story, a story becomes a myth. A myth becomes a legend, and the legend becomes history. That's what the Bible is... It is all legend, which is BS.