I have a hard time believing that Stu is even interested in learning anything from an answer to your question. His tactic seems to be to distract from whatever topic the thread is on. Like I said earlier, if he is really wanting honest discussion, then why isn't he more interested in discussion on the amazing accuracy of Bible prophecies and fulfillment?
Because that would promote, what he's here to disparage. If memory serves me correctly, he was once a man of the faith. I suspect he probably, at some point in his life, went to the dark side and used the loss or suffering of a loved one as "evidence" that God couldn't possibly exist. Many do that out of lack of knowledge/understanding. He knows just enough to be dangerous. But he doesn't know enough to realize what he doesn't know. As we've seen, he still can't figure out how to ask specific questions. He'll waffle back and forth for days rather than simply asking a few basic questions.
You made a good point, that often suffering, especially if someone sees the suffering of a loved one, can lead one to blame God for all the evil in this world. God does provide some answers to those questions that arise.
A couple years ago I was in a Bible study led by a man who has chronic, severe health problems, at times necessitating hospitalizations. The study was on the book of Job. It was helpful to me and the rest of the group to hear his insights and discuss the book. Here is one point that I remember thinking about at that time: There is a battle going on between Satan and God. Satan had to get permission from God to devastate Job. Satan used that permission to kill Job's children and flocks. After this, Satan afflicted Job's health. A biblical understanding of the origin of evil/lies/murder/pride and the person of Satan is key for a Christian to maintain faith in God's unwavering goodness. Evil is not of God. I think one reason people do become so bitter against God is because they are attributing to God the cause of the evil in this world. After all, if God is all powerful and good, then why is this world such a mess? Can God stop the evil in this world? Sure He can. But ONE reason He doesn't is because people don't want Him to. Example: Most people, if asked if they God to come down from heaven and rule over everything, making sure that there was no crime, so sickness, but only good things would not really want that, because along with that comes the other side to all that is good: all that is NOT good, must be banished. So, to anyone who says, yes, I want a good, perfect world where there is no suffering and everything is happy with God ruling over it, then why have they not submitted to God as ruler of their lives now, so that they can have the promise of future life with Him in a perfect environment? What I just wrote isn't from my own imagination. The Bible has many prophecies from many people all saying the same thing, that there will be a time on this earth where God will remove Satan's influence and things will be better (not perfect, as it will be in heaven, but much better). God will make himself known to EVERYONE. But it says that during that time He will rule with a rod of iron. Basically, no tolerance for evil. A Messianic Psalm talks of this time: "I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by the LORD: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father. Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance, the ends of the earth Your possession. You will break them with an iron scepter... Psalm 2:7-9a And sadly, at the end of that wonderful time period, Satan is allowed to return to earth to deceive people and he once again deceives people and they rebel against God's rule. There are so many Scriptures backing up what I just wrote that I hardly know which ones to post. This is the literal interpretation of the Bible. There are branches of Christianity that will say all these things are allegorical and not going to actually happen, and I do respect their walk with God, but I disagree with their interpretation for end time prophecies and I believe these things will happen as the Bible describes them. When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations Revelation 20:7 The point I'm trying to make is that ALL of us want a pain free, pleasant and happy existence, but people are in a state of rebellion against God and the pain that is in this world is a reminder that suffering and death are the consequences of that rebellion. Here's something to consider: If the most evil person on this earth committed horrible crimes against others and then had an episode of amnesia, would not being able to remember his past crimes make him less guilty? Of course not, he is still guilty of the crimes, even if he can't remember doing them. Now think about what happened in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were created completely good, but with the choice to rebel, and given the warning that suffering and death would be the result of rebellion. The did rebel. So why were their kids not given the same equal opportunity to make the choice for themselves of whether or not to rebel? There is a clue in Hebrews 7:10 (showing 2 different versions): "because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor." NIV "for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Melchizedek met him." NASB Scientifically we can say it sounds like we can break it into 1. genetics and 2. life. I don't understand it all myself, but there is something about the procession of parents to children that makes infants inherit a sin nature from their parents. In other words, they are born in a state of rebellion toward God and that has something to do with how the life is passed on from parent to child. Each child born, although separate from his/her parents, had their life given to them by their parents. But just like a guilty person who gets amnesia is still guilty of crimes he committed, the fact that people aren't born with a memory of the origin of our rebel does not remove our condition. But on the flip side: Do people really WANT to be reconciled to God from their rebellion? When confronted with the opportunity to acknowledge our sin against God and trust in Jesus' sacrifice as sufficient payment on our behalf so that we can be reconciled, most will refuse. People do not really want to be reconciled to God on God's terms. If it weren't for God seeking us out, nobody would ever choose God on their own. Yet God does seek, and God does respond to seekers who come ON HIS TERMS. Why would anyone wanting reconciliation with God, whom they have offended, want to come on their own terms? Yet sadly, many do not listen to what God has to say about the matter but come up with their own ideas of what they want to be right, not listening to what God says about it. The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Additionally, waxing philosophical: I believe that Adam and Eve represented human perfection. In other words, regardless any individual that could have "replaced" Adam, or any woman that could have replaced Eve, the result would have been the same--being deceived by Satan.
True. Sometimes I let my mind imagine how it could have played out. No matter how long you went without eating the forbidden fruit, you would always know that at some time in the future you might make that choice. In contrast, for the believer, we are now in God's family and CAN'T be lost again. God has promised us the righteousness of Christ. It is in a substitutionary way, of course, but along with that we have His assurance that we will be kept from ever sinning again. But I sometimes imagine what if I do sin in heaven? I know it can't and won't happen, but just for the sake of thinking about all the possibilities, what if I do? And the reassuring promise from Scripture is that for ALL ETERNITY, Jesus is my High Priest. So I have NOTHING to fear. The Old Testament says He will be a priest for us for FOREVER: The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” Psalm 110:4 NIV And the New Testament repeats that He will be a priest for us FOREVER: For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” Hebrews 7:17 ESV Whatever life brings me or any other believer, the sufferings we endure will only be for this lifetime. For all eternity we will never, ever suffer again. Thanks to Jesus who paid the price, whoever believes (trusts) in Him, will not be punished for their sins, for Jesus was punished on our behalf.
You mean, as long as one remains a true believer, and has done the necessary things? You mean, has promised us that the righteousness is available, to those that do the necessary things? I believe whether or not we sin will always be a matter of free will. That's the point--not to have robots that have no say in the matter. That's not an expression of love. The tree was in the garden for that very reason, imo. And satan will be loosed during the 1000 year reign, also for that very reason, imo. Or during the 1000 year reign on Earth? I think it can, and will--with some people. Remember, the salvation bar is very low. There will be The Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign. Additionally, imo: "Rightly dividing The Word" entails recognizing that some parts were written for Jews, some for Gentiles, some for then-present people, and some for then-future people.
UH OH. I sense we are not in agreement on some of what the Bible teaches. I believe that what Jesus did on the cross was a full payment for sin. Once one trust in Jesus to save them from their sins against Him they are forever forgiven and promised they will have eternal life with God...which will never be taken away from them. Now, I do know that there are some who believe that they can lose that salvation and gain it again and lose it again. That doesn't bother me too much, because I just think they'll have a nice surprise (in heaven) when they find out they were actually saved all along and don't have to worry about losing it. But what I'd be interesting in hearing more from you about is what you mean when you say "and has done the necessary things." I don't see anything except repentance (turning from sin to God) and faith (trusting in Jesus and His work) as a requirement for salvation. Isn't that what is taught in Ephesians 1:13, 14 ? 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
No two people agree on everything. It's just a matter of have they spent enough time together to discover what the disagree about? Agree. One has to truly believe (trust). I wrote "necessary things" as a catch-all in case I missed something. But I agree with you, just belief/trust is all that is needed.
If one once believed, and later no longer believes, are you suggesting that they are still saved, even though they currently don't believe?