Stu said: "It is by definition a greater good, that doesn't seek instruction or command or hollow promises of reward." In theory that sounds good. But in practicality, because of the influence of sin over us all, we don’t often do the good that Jesus commanded in those verses posted above. Having a loving relationship with One who only does good and only wants to helps us recognize what is good and do it, is superior to trying to do good all on my own. Sure, if I was a completely good person, then I would do those things that Jesus commanded without having to give it a second thought. But I am not a 100% purely good person. I struggle just as everyone else does, with a tendency and desire to think and do things that aren’t good. To become angry with hatred at injustices. Anger at injustice IS good, but hatred for the person is NOT good. Those verses command us to love our enemies and bless those who persecute us. I have to work hard in my mind to be able to do that. I sometimes fail here, but because I LIKE doing what Jesus wants me to do, I take these verses and think about them when I am struggling with the behavior of someone who is truly being cruel. Doesn’t mean I will do things to allow him/her to continue in cruelty. It is never good to passively allow someone to behave cruelly when it is within my power to intervene (depending on the circumstance). Just trying to say that loving and blessing a difficult person is not the same as allowing abuse to continue, it would be wrong to allow an abuser to continue, if it's within my ability to stop it. You said: "It is by definition a greater good, that doesn't seek instruction or command or hollow promises of reward." So now I'm curious, since you are all on your own here, without looking to Jesus for guidance and help, can you honestly say that of your own sense of wanting a greater good, that without any instruction you ALWAYS have chosen the greater good to do these things that Jesus commanded in Matthew 5? 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
In theory in practice and in reality. The act of doing good doesn't make someone's religious beliefs true, but hanging religion onto unconditional kindness or goodness can only diminish them. Quite frankly and no offence intended, as much as you deserve it for all your smug, self-serving sanctimonious bs, if someone needs to refer to or rely upon a god or a jesus to give reason or to justify doing good, then it really isn't religion they need. It's an empathy transplant.
Stu, you didn't respond to my question. I'll repeat it again: Stu said: "It is by definition a greater good, that doesn't seek instruction or command or hollow promises of reward." So now I'm curious, since you are all on your own here, without looking to Jesus for guidance and help, can you honestly say that of your own sense of wanting a greater good, that without any instruction you ALWAYS have chosen the greater good to do these things that Jesus commanded in Matthew 5? 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Was just now listening to this hymn written in 1864 decided to share it in the hope that whoever listens to it's message will come away realizing that it is a real joy to love and serve the Savior!
The answer is there are all those folks who have NEVER done religion, are not guided by Matthew 5, who do nothing but good. Which suggests that were you not looking to Jesus for guidance and help in Matthew 5 to not murder, to not steal, you'd be inclined to murder and to steal! The point which you are entirely missing, is simply that it is by definition a more pure and greater good that is unconditional. Do as I say or I'll burn ur sorry ass isn't unconditional - it's just another hollow threat. That kind of Jesus "help" is not needed. Nor is this "If anyone comes to me and does not hate their father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, even their own life, such a person cannot be my disciple."
Stu, nope, to all of your statements. I'm only going to respond to one for now. Maybe I'll get to the others another time. I think you are concerned about the "hate" word Jesus used when you posted Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Guess what?!!! The God who created humans with the ability to speak and develop many types of expression through language KNOWS HOW TO USE LANGUAGE TO MAKE A POINT COME ACROSS! Let’s see, English speaking people even have the word HYPERBOLE to define language that is exaggerated to get a point across. https://literarydevices.net/hyperbole/ Hyperbole commonly used in everyday language is not meant to be taken literally, but used for the sake of making an expression. Although Jesus used hyperbole and other forms of speech, He did not do so intending to deceive. After all, it was Jesus who told the rich young ruler that the greatest commandment of all is to love God and the second is like it, to love your neighbor as yourself. The life of Jesus recorded throughout 4 gospels, meaning 4 different people wrote them, is amazingly unified in it’s representation of Jesus’ words and actions. There are minor differences that are easily explained by anyone who puts a little thought into the matter. One of the differences that is commonly seen is that since Jesus was preaching over and over again to many groups of people, what is recorded in one gospel will have a similarity to what is recorded in another gospel yet have enough of a difference that one should realize that it was likely a repeated message and the words were not scripted, Jesus got the same message across to different groups by using variations in the wording/stories. There is another passage in a different gospel where Jesus preached a similar message but used different words. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37 NIV We don't know why Jesus chose to use hyperbole when using the “hate” word with the particular group that he said it to, but His audience would have known the Law of Moses, and would have known those commands are all about loving others by treating them fairly and kindly. There is even one specific command to honor one’s father and mother. Jesus’ statement would have been understood by those listening that Jesus was not teaching hate, but rather making a comparison that love for God must be supreme to all others. Placing that verse in the context of the surrounding verses also shows that the point He was making was the cost of discipleship, not teaching hatred. “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? Luke 14:26-28 NIV
Just now came across this reading of the gospel of John by Sir David Suchet on you tube. I think I'll listen to it for a while this morning.