Tell me, if the resurrection was such a big deal for God and humans, how come we have to rely on hearsay accounts from people who weren't there? We don't. The early church affirmed that the gospels accounts were written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and two and possibly three of those were eyewitnesses to the resurrection. Paul also wrote multiple epistles. All of them have the same message that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for our sins and that He rose again. Paul's epistles also mention many other churches that held to these same beliefs. Why so many grey areas, differing versions and lack of records from the non Christians? What is so gray about Jesus being the Son of God and that repentance and faith in Him provide reconciliation with God based on His death, burial and resurrection? Differing versions? There are a few scribal errors, but not anything that compromises the message. Do you think that's because God wants to make life difficult for anyone outside of His chosen cult? No. One reason Jesus gave for people rejecting Him was that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. People don't want to submit to God's right to rule over them, even though He is a loving and good God. However, He also said that those who would seek would find. The one who wants to do God's will will be given more light. There are good reasons to believe the Bible and I've shown you some of them. The argument that the resurrection was believed by the early church is very strong just from the evidence within the early epistles of Paul. But for someone who will mock everything, nothing will be enough. But I don't like arguing for the sake of argument. We are just going around in circles. So I'm taking a break from this thread for a bit.
You don't convince me. The early church was full of scammers and those being scammed, not the original disciples but those husslers who coattailed on them. A gazillion religions in the world and Christianity just head and shoulders above the rest for smooth talking entertainment. Take ET for example as a cross section example of human behaviour, the far majority attempt to do the right thing, if they didn't fights would be breaking out everywhere, but for the most part everyone is civil. Christians are always crying "persecution." This thread is contentious because the Christian attempt to promote something which you expect the rest to believe on faith and one book, the bible which in itself is a contentious book. For the most part unsaved (non church goer) Western people attempt to do the right thing.
This is my guess at what happened. Jesus was a Jew hating Jew who annoyed the shit out of the temple Jews. Jesus was charismatic and had a following of people, mainly transient hobo types. Jesus made some grandiose claims about himself as you would if you have the gift of the gab, maybe good looking, possibly sociopath, narcissist. Think Donald Trump or any other authortarian type leader personality. Jesus was strung up, died. Disciples expected resurrection which never happened. As time went on, a cult following grew awaiting resurrection. When the disciples died, the cultist crew decided to embelish the story until it became full of miracles and exageration including a resurrection. In order to 'keep it real', the risen Jesus was only witnessed by a handful of people who 'unfortunately are now dead.'
Well, the resurrection was predicted in Isaiah, if you look hard enough for it. And I know that won't convince you. I'm just not getting things done, because I keep checking this thread. And also, I tried to convince you, and you weren't convinced. Had fun trying. But I gotta be done for a while. Also, I don't think there is much else I know of to try to convince you. What's that saying? You made your bed so now you must lie in it. Hope you change your mind someday.
LOL, we've been over this before as well, so why are you going over old ground. If the cultists are unreliable frauds they will fit in anything to make Jesus look legitimate, "Oh he rose from the dead, we can prove it, it's in Isaiah". Everything in the NT you say is legitimate, and when I say show me proof you quote more stuff out of the NT. Like I said, like a judge who calls his family in to be witnesses, that how stupid it is. The fraudulent Christian cultist even so called produced the evidence after Jesus and the original disciples were dead, sometime from 70 years later and not before, after the fact and when all other living witnesses were dead. Did the Jews and Romans have any proof of Jesus death? YES!!! Did the Jews and Romans have any proof of Jesus resurrection? NO!!! Even though it supposedly happened only 3 days later. There are so many holes in the story, you guys need to do better with facts.
Next excuse will be, Jews and Romans knew of resurrection but kept it secret because they belong to the devil.
Found it on a website made by the guy I heard it from. Haven't found any cites for what I said about surviving the tribulation nor the beheadings yet. Your thoughts?: QUOTED BELOW (emphasis added): What is the Gospel that will be preached during the tribulation ? ANTI-CHRIST - "FALSE PROPHET" Turn to Revelation 7. The Book of Revelation primarily deals with those final seven years before the return of Christ at His Second Coming; then the setting up of His Kingdom upon the earth. This seven years is primarily God dealing with the Nation of Israel; however, all the world will become involved. Remember Jeremiah 30:7? Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." We'll look at this verse more in detail later. It's God dealing with His Covenant people and for this reason they are still coming back to their homeland, getting ready for these final seven years. The best way to study Revelation is not to try to take it chronologically, but find the events at the beginning, at the middle, and at the end of the Tribulation, and then fill in the gaps. Chronologically it won't make all that much sense to you. The past several lessons we have been looking at things at the beginning. 1. The appearance of the Anti-christ when he will sign that seven-year peace treaty with the Nation of Israel, which will again kick God's time clock back in gear, as it has been stopped now all during the Church Age. 2. The appearance of those two witnesses. They will come to the Nation of Israel in Jerusalem. And they will begin proclaiming God's Word to the Nation of Israel, and out of the ministry of these two... 3. God is going to seal and commission the 144,000 young Jewish men whom God will use to circumvent the globe. They won't be preaching the Gospel of Grace as we know it, but, rather, they will be reverting back again to the Gospel of the Kingdom as it was being proclaimed at the time of Christ and Peter and the eleven. There is a vast difference between the Gospel of Grace and the Gospel of the Kingdom. When you understand that, the Bible is much less confusing. At that time, the Age of Grace has ended and the Church is gone. A person will no longer have the opportunity to join a local congregation. But rather these 144,000 will be telling the world that the King is coming. After all, that was the message in Christ's earthly ministry. He Himself referred to it more than once as the Gospel of the Kingdom. The King and His Kingdom were about to come on the scene. Of course Israel rejected that, and the King was crucified. God raised Him from the dead, called Him back to heaven to sit at the Father's right hand until His enemies should be made His footstool. That `until' signifies the time when He will once again deal with His Covenant people of Israel. ____________________________ Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom..." This Gospel of the Kingdom. Not the Gospel of Grace. We preach today the Gospel of Grace that you must believe for your salvation, that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose from the dead. Jesus Himself revealed that to the Apostle Paul, and Paul alone, in I Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9-10 and many other places in Paul's writing. But Jesus and the twelve preached the Gospel of the Kingdom which is believing for salvation that Jesus was the Messiah, repentance, and baptism. This is found in Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and many other Scriptures in the four Gospels and the Book of Acts through at least Chapter 15. So this gospel of the Kingdom: Matthew 24:14b "...shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Isn't that plain? But you have to know which Gospel. Paul tells us in Galatians 2:7-9 that there were two Gospels, one that he (Paul) preached to the Gentiles (uncircumcision) by revelation from Jesus Christ. And the other that John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter and the 12 preached to the Jews or Nation of Israel (circumcision). So as you study, notice who is speaking and who is being spoken to. ____________________________ Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall (at a future time.) be preached in all the world for a witness unto (how many?) all nations; and then shall the end come." Now, you see how simple that is when you put it in the right prospective. I've had good friends of mine lift this verse out of context, and say we have to get the Gospel into every nation before the Lord can come. That's not what Jesus was talking about. The Gospel of Grace is a calling out a people for His Name, absolutely. But it's going to end, and the Tribulation is going to come in and then Jesus said, "The same Gospel of the Kingdom that He preached in His three years of ministry will be proclaimed again during the Tribulation." Now can you keep that? Put that up here. Just stop and think. If that Good News is proclaimed to every nation on earth, that the King is coming, it will last for the whole seven years. Notice Jesus did not mention the Church Age and the Gospel of Grace. He skips over it from His ministry to the Tribulation. And that will be the message that the 144,000 young Jewish men will preach to the world. The King is coming, and indeed He will be! Editor's Note: After the rapture takes place, the Age of Grace will have ended. Then during the tribulation, the 144,000 young Jewish men will be teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. The message will be that the Kingdom is at hand and the Messiah, the King, is coming, as it was prophesied. Therefore, repent of your sins and be baptized with water. END QUOTE: https://www.lesfeldick.org/lesqa-c.html#15c
The "things past" includes the Age of Grace. https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/matthew-henry-complete/revelation/12
Thanks for the links! The way of salvation has always been believing and not any based on works we do. It has always been God's grace that gives salvation, it can never be earned. In the Old Testament, keeping the law was evidence of belief in God. See Galatians 3 and Romans 4 and Hebrews 11 for more on the Law and Faith. Also, Romans 3:20, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." A bible study on the word believe in just the Old Testament can help with understanding this. Believe in Strong's https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=believe&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1 Faith in Strong's KJV: https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=faith&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1 Trust in Strong's KJV: https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=trust&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1 We have the specifics of what is necessary to believe given to us clearly in the Bible for our time. The focus of the message should be sharing who the Lord Jesus Christ is, that He is God who became flesh and dwelt among us, as well as appropriating by faith what He did on our behalf through His shed blood, His death, burial and resurrection. It is when we come to realize who God is as our Creator and see that we go our own ways instead of His righteous ways, and He does have the right to command us, that we can truly turn to Him in our heart, repenting of our sins and rebellion towards Him, and receive what He did for us at the cross and by His resurrection. Who Jesus is: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us... John 1:14a 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” 30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 12:28-31 What Jesus did: For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas [my insert: Peter], then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 New Testament beliefs are founded on Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus is also, "a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” Hebrews 7:17. If there is a slight change to the gospel message, perhaps more of a Kingdom emphasis during the Tribulation, it would not negate the necessity of what Jesus did at the cross for us. He will be our priest "forever."