yeah, sorry I wasn't fully clear about that. I'm talking about day traders. they weren't stabbing the market constantly looking for a tick or two. the high volume came from the fact that they worked their positions hard. a lot of the volume was accounted for by constantly altering the size of positions to work the p/l. that uses up a lot of roundies when spread trading but it gets you out of a lot of jams. eg, if one side of the spread was on, the might double into it and just leave the other. they might also add to positions at a more preferrable price, it was very discretionary and some people were doing condor spreads. so, yeah there is more to being a high volume trader than just attacking the market with a baseball bat.
if you're successful you won't want to be there...why stay on 30-40% when you could be on industry standard 80% at so many other places.
response to Mr B: i'm biting my tongue here...because i know a couple of guys who wrote negative things on this website and had letters from ghco solicitors on their doormats a couple of days later threatening to sue if an apology wasn't forthcoming. in response to a couple of your points, 3. re: trader support. the news flow in london is "allegedly" a joke. it's amateur hour with the guy who reads the news. 4. good reason to join a firm..."nice people" and "strangely good looking". you've got to be sh*tting me! 6. commission is not competitive any more. some firms will offer you 0.54 per eurex round trip after only 20,000 every month. 7. the golden handcuffs IS a big deal. and in no way should it be called golden handcuffs. restraint of trade would be more appropriate. golden handcuffs implies they pay you a fortune to stay on. at ghco, they pay you half the going rate...and you have to stay because THEY WILL SUE. make no mistake about that. imagine you make 100k profit (post desk fee and brokerage) in your first year. you get paid (sal + bonus) 30-40k. are you not going to be slightly perturbed that a firm over the road will give you between 70 and 80k? and that the 100k could be more anyway with cheaper costs. 8. "taking disciplinary action against a third of their london staff". i don't know anything about this, but seriously....does that sound like great trader support to you. let's not pretend they are any different to any other prop shop...if you are not covering costs you are out. 9. the STIR room. rumours it is being disbanded in london. all edge in their market gone and haven't made any money for a couple of years...allegedly. to be fair...they did make a lot of money...and took advantage of their edge for a good few years. as in any market though, where an opportunity shows itself, other people identify it and the market changes. do not base a decision on whether to join them on the chance of getting into the STIR room. disclaimer: the above views are my own, and not necessarily fact. they are all alleged as well. ghco. is an ok company. but you have to take the 4 or 5 yr contract very seriously. THERE IS NO WAY OUT. if you are profitable, and you want to leave, you can be sued. even if you don't even want to work in the industry. you can get the equivalent training (which is pretty good at ghco), and pay cheaper costs elsewhere. and not be tied down by the ridiculous contract. this is a slightly more balanced view.....allegedly!!
fair enough. but for a company to last and do well they must be doing something right. call to mind all the prop shops that go bust in the first few years before you critiscise anybody whos been in business since the 80s. where can you get 0.54 a roundie? that's pretty amazing. it's 20 cents through Eurex Clearing AG but the norm is for firms to mark up a little, but 54 cents (in the City?!), in some places it's more like 1.20 a round turn, which is unfeasible IMO. some firms based in other parts of the country with cheaper rent and back office offer it, but do you really want to live in Birmingham? as for STIR traders in Europe generally, not just the GHCO ones, is this not their big break? after years in the flat interest rate doldrums, things are starting to liven up.
absolutely true about what you say regarding the fact they must be doing something right. it's amazing in fact, considering the competition in london for traders and the fact that industry standard is now 80% profit split. goldenberg and hehmeyer have been in the industry for years...and they know exactly what they are doing. i have a lot of respect for them as successful businessmen, but as employers...i'm not so sure. it's a good, solid place to learn...and they do give you time...but seriously...you are locked in. don't take the job without knowing that the ghco contract is absolutely watertight. i sh*t you not. if you are profitable...you are in and you have to serve that sentence. take the contract to a lawyer - he will tell you exactly the same. elite derivatives in the city start at 0.70 and as soon as you hit 20,000 in the month your whole month's brokerage is at 0.54. yeah, things should liven up...but i've heard rumours that the way that these guys milked money for a few years has evaporated. their edge has gone, and they are now in the same boat as the rest of us.
"you are locked in. don't take the job without knowing that the ghco contract is absolutely watertight. i sh*t you not. if you are profitable...you are in and you have to serve that sentence. take the contract to a lawyer - he will tell you exactly the same. " Clearly you are talking to a lousy lawyer!! Employment contracts arent worth the paper they are written on unless you develop some proprietary system. I can promise you that the folks at GHCO wont let you do anything that isnt very basic inside the box trading in products that are very flush like bonds or euros. They cant stop you from going somewhere else to earn a living. Numerous profitable traders have left there with no hassle. Best of luck but never let a silly contract employment clause influence your decision as a the last thing an arcade like GHCO wants is any unhappy trader shooting futures while they are angry.
you are absolutely 100% wrong. i cannot stress to you enough how wrong you are. i am speaking from experience. if you are a profitable trader, and you wish to leave, and you have signed a 4 or 5 year contract, you CANNOT leave. i cannot name names, or cases...but they are a highly litigious company. i emphasise, that contract is watertight and one of the best employment lawyers in london could not beat it. this is FACT. again, let me emphasise that this is not to say they are a bad company. they have been around for a long time and clearly make money. all i am saying is...take the contract to an employment lawyer before you sign for proof of what i have said. ps. if you start "shooting off futures" in a dissimilar way to the way you have previously traded (i.e. to get sacked) they can sue you for gross misconduct. remember...if someone started doing that all the risk manager has to do is make the trader trade 1 lots for a few weeks. see how quickly the trader trades properly then...with no chance of a bonus because he can't trade any size!
just checked out your previous comments on this thread artis74.... http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55618 you practically threatened someone there with legal action due to their "slanderous" comments. mr kamikaze had it right when he saw you off later in the thread and accused you of being on some sort of "ghco hit squad" (lol). do not come in here spreading falsehoods about employment contracts. the originator just wanted to know about the firm. and deserves to know that the ghco employment contract is f-ing watertight, and what he is getting himself into. i have said, it is a fairly decent firm. but there are two things to watch out for. the fact you will be on 30-40%, and the fact that the GHCO contract is unbreakable. do you really think ghco would risk teaching people how to trade, and then lose their profitable ones to other houses after a year - leaving the not so profitable ones to sit around collecting their basic salary? i don't think so.
All true Squadron Leader, all true. And to think that me, you artis74 and nonotechno most likely know each other is even more laughable. Squadron Leader I presume that you at least once upon a time worked at GHCO as I did, and the other two are still flying the flag it seems - although nonotechno is more reasonable in his assessments. I pose a simple question to all who read this post and that is how many fair businesses go broke trying to provide a fair and cheap service. In fact one of the easiest ways to go broke in business is to try and offer overly fair deals to your customers who in turn show very little loyalty. In turn there are many very tight fisted monopolies that charge scandalous prices without shame and still prosper. So the fact they GHCO is still going since the 80's and Elite Derivatives is new says nothing at all. I am of course not making accusations here all I am saying is that you cannot presume a good reputation based off of their age, after all Barings was over 200 years old when Leeson came along. I know both the GHCO and Elite owners well enough and I would choose Elite given the choice without question. Lots of very good traders choose Elite having been at other firms and they are willing to share their knowledge, plus the deals are competetive with no trade restaints. The contract does stick, and cannot be broken as I have known many people who have attempted to tackle this issue and failed. Ask GHCO about the contract in the interview or when you receive a job offer and let their response tell you what you should do. That way your decision on whether or not to accept the job can only be based on their response which in my experience was the same as others who asked. Ask them have they ever sued anyone because if they say no they are lying, alos why have the clause if they won't sue. Also ask how many they have sued and what the outcome was. I also suggest asking to speak with some of their new hires and maybe touring the dealing room floor as the IB's let you do - see if they allow that as part of them selling you the job. After all shouldn't you see where you would work and meet potential colleagues before you sign up for a restrictive deal of 4-5 years. I don't think that such requests or questions are unreasonable after all. Quite simply ask all the questions you can about them and the deal and see what they say. If they are open then you can make a decision given knowldge of what to expect, and if they are defensive or secretive then you may not have enough information to make a fair decision on whether or not to join. Personally I would suggest that you go elsewhere as the salary although a perk at first becomes of no importance at all if you are any good. The salary only seems good while you are new. If I was you I would get a part-time job, live with parents etc anything to save and fund myself for that first year while taking a deal at a firm that offers no salary but a great deal. In the long-run it will be way better for you financially to be able to steer your own career. GHCO have had quite a few good traders, but the truth be told those people were naturals who would have made good at any firm. Also no firm that I know of can claim to have created a higher proportion of good traders. All firms recruit people who by natural talent become good, or even great traders. So the fact that GHCO has produced some good guys means nothing, as good traders emerge from all prop firms as do bad ones too. In fact it was Refco who trained the best trader that I know of and look how that turned out. This is trading after all and there is no secret formula that any firm can teach so teh whole wonderful training sales pitch shopuld be ignored because ultimately if you are the 5% who make it it will be because of you and only you. My thoughts on prop trading and GHCO are well known. For people who want to hear more of my views please feel free to read my past posts and the posts of those who either agreed or disagreed with me. I wish you all well, especially those wannabe traders because this game is very tough and getting tougher all the time. For those who disagree with me you are all entitled to your opinion but so am I and having worked at GHCO in the past I can say that although I don't regret the experience I would rather have started my trading career elsewhere - the main reason being that I would have been able to leave after a year and get a higher % once I had my experience. All the above is my own opinion and I state that I don't work at GHCO or Elite - fact - so I am not promoting one over the other. However I do prefer the structure of the Elite deal and the freedom that they offer based on what I know of each deal.
Are the same traders trading in the NYC office, given the tight range and volume imbalance between the five/ten/30y