Who or what are you actually referring to? That Germany owes you or your ancestors an apology into eternity? It is amazing how unforgiving some people can be. But for forgiveness something else is vitally important: That the other party shows remorse and repents. Has Germany done so? Yes. Has Greece done so? No. Very important non-trivial differences. lol, the German is spoken with such strong English accent that this cannot be a German kid. And he looks so damn ugly, much like the British kids who came for a 1 year exchange program to my high school each year. Most of them were either obese or looked like they contracted BSE.
My theory is that the productive people kept on heading northwest and that's why things are the way they are - the ones sipping coffee all day and talking about the (distant) glorious past were left but they expected things to remain as they were before which is unrealistic. You have the same types of people in many north African countries but they enjoy vastly lower and more realistic incomes compared to Greece, that's what Greece is heading toward right now. These areas also mainly rely on tourism for income, just like Greece.
If you want to go that road, how much has the UK paid in reparations to the colonies where lots of heinous acts took place? One could also argue that so much technology was stolen from Germany and the patents weren't honored by any of the winners in the war. That's major income for the countries which isn't reflected anywhere. But I know, if you're not German then you're pretty much allowed to do anything and NOT held responsible. In the end it doesn't matter. It boils down to a fact that comparing peace-time Greece with very favorable economic conditions to a post-war, economically destroyed Germany is not relevant. The "grave demands" to Greece are pretty much the same that were done in the Baltics after the 2008/9, people sucked it up and there was no horrible suffering or anything like that. These countries had even lower incomes before the measures were installed.
It has nothing to do with hating Jews. It's about the fact that a certain group of Jews discovered that it's easy to milk Germany for billions citing things that happened 70 years ago. It's purely an economic decision for these guys and nothing to do with suffering or the actual events. If you think there's nothing wrong with milking a horrendous event in history just so you can get a new house and a sports car, then fine. I don't see it that way. I would also like to see the thousands (millions?) of innocent victims in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan start demanding money for the US murders in the region. Ironically, when Vietnamese were trying to sue US government for US gov't crimes in the region, US told them to go f*ck themselves. In contrast Jews have very favorable conditions in Germany these days while Vietnamese still give birth to 2 headed babies, courtesy of US government. But Germany is obligated to pay every cent, right? Because that's "fair"?
I never said that Germany should pay the last cent of reparation. I just pointed out that in history it's quite common that haircuts are granted and that Germany received it's share . IMO granting them after WWII was a wise decision. What's up with you guys seeing hatred against Germany everywhere? In this historic light the demand of Greece for a haircut is not so extreme. The EU is as much to blaim for this misery as Greece itself. Anyway, I'm convinced the loans to Greece are sunk money and that Greece should never have entered the Euro in the first place.
Dude, casually glancing over this thread, casually watching Greek evening news where you see Nazi and Hitler images and clips, casually re-checking your statements that denounced Germany repaid any debt nor war reparations and then come back and again ask us what it is with the perception Germans are milked and scapegoated. There are valid reasons that Germans are fed up, tired, and exhausted from the constant demand that some of the laziest and sneakiest in the world are making. As if being productive and manufacturing products of high quality and in high demand is a crime and must be taxed with the iHateGermansSpecialTax. [the Euro level is not an excuse to punish Germany, everyone knows and understands ECON101 that strong countries benefit from a relatively cheap Euro and nations in Europe with low productivity and output suffer from a relatively strong Euro]. I personally will continue to counter lies and false statements with facts as I have done in this thread. The demand by Greece for hair cuts IS EXTREME and here is why: a) Greece has received numerous haircuts via interest rate reductions, in fact Greece pays on some of the debt lower rates than Italy or other major European nations. Greece has received debt maturity extensions that are more onerous than what any other European country received. No other EU country in need for bailouts and/or supports has been treated more generously than Greece has. b) Greece has tricked and lied itself into the EU. We can be like dumb kids and pretend that the person who was lied at on the receiving end is at fault. Most wise and educated, especially grown up, adults concede that the liar and cheater is at fault, always. c) Greece is asking for favors and thus it is the responsibility of Greece to move forward with compromises. Instead they angered and hit everyone on the forehead by suddenly pulling out and announcing a national referendum. In effect the last reform offer on the table by Greece is virtually identical with what the creditors are demanding. d) Again, most intelligent people realize that when someone defaults on debt then it is their one-sided fault. They need to face the consequences. Sub prime borrowers were 100% at fault. Not the creditors, not Goldman Sachs, not Fed Chairman Greenspan, not any politician. The borrower is signing an agreement that he/she understands what he/she is doing and agrees to repay debt. So, there is not one single question who is at fault here, Greece ALONE, nobody else. They acted irresponsibly and now use debt as a means to negotiate to milk more money out of the EU, ECB, and IMF. We can talk about whether it was light headed and maybe even outright naive to lend so much money to Greece and not assessing risk more thoroughly. Fair. We can do that. But this is not related to the question of fault and responsibility. Just because I give you money without checking your credit history and ability to repay DOES NOT make me complicit in your decision to default and violate agreements. You will be at fault and you go to jail or are forced to declare personal bankruptcy, not I. Same with Greece and its Creditors. Greece has to deliver and if they want hair cuts then THEY NEED TO MOVE AND OFFER SOMETHING IN EXCHANGE. Austerity WILL NOT BE OFF THE TABLE, that I am absolutely sure because without austerity things will NEVER change in Greece.
@volpunter Greece has lived on credit the last two centuries. What the EU basically did is tell a notorious crack whore to stop her addiction and at the same time supplied her with unlimited crack. Now, that is dumb. The money is gone and not coming back. Well done, EU!
Yes. The transition will be hell, but at least the economic shock absorbers will be inflation, FX, etc. Not human lives.
Wait, what? Can you please define "work" in your above sentence? Because I've got news for you, it's not "working" in Spain, or Italy, etc. Austerity...lol! What's Spain's youth unemployment rate again? What's Italy's debt 2 GDP? I mean, we could go on and on with these guys. Podemos is looking at Greece and salivating right now.
Some numbers about Greece since 2009: infant mortality +43% suicides +45% hiv among drug-users +3226% http://www.knack.be/nieuws/wetensch...gen-in-griekenland/article-normal-130217.html