The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. (Proverbs 8:13) That having been said it wouldn't be right to single out the sexual perversions of gays while general society is steeped in adultery, fornication, pornography, and all kinds of crimes in business that do much more damage in lowering the spirituality of the world than the sexual pursuits of homosexuals.
No, not right, people with downs syndrome are allowed to have sex with each other. No problems with that, in fact a lot of them gets married. If you think it's somehow your business to stop them from doing that, I don't think this discussion will get anywhere. And yes, if scientists are right and homosexuality does have some basis in genetics and in stuff that happens while they're in their mothers wombs, one might indeed consider them mentally impaired or even very lightly brain damaged. However, since it doesn't seem to impair the affected ones in any other way than they're sexual preference, and since they don't hurt any one else, they should simply make the best out of their situation and you and I should butt out. Forcing them to a life with partners of the opposite sex would be like forcing heterosexuals to marry partners of the same sex. I know that would suck. You must understand that we're not all blessed with your opportunity to just pick and choose which urges to entertain. I believe you're right that people will usually entertain the thoughts of rape and pedophilia before they develop such sexual preferences, but you're completely overlooking the urges that comes before and drives the thoughts. First come the urges, then comes the thoughts, and then comes the realization of those thoughts. In the case of pedophilia I'd bet it's never the other way around, nobody starts thinking about having sex with children without having a strong urge to. I believe this is an attempt to justify religiously motivated criminalization of pornography. In Europe (and probably also in America), nearly all men watch porn on a regular basis. More than 90% of the male population. Yet, the rapists around here are mostly immigrants who come from cultures where sexuality is strictly prohibited outside marriage and pornography and masturbation is a grave sin. That makes them extremely sexually frustrated, on top of being in a foreign country where they lack a common sense of responsibility and accountability towards fellow citizens. Their urges take completely over and they rape someone. People who do watch porn (and masturbate) or have an active sex life however, almost never become rapists. The point is not that pornography is great, I don't even have an opinion about that. My point is that your point is hollow. You might be right about certain types of rapists (those who develop a fetish for rape), but those people are like professionals, they know what they want and they can get it with a hooker or by connecting with other people who have a fetish for being raped (there are frighteningly many of those too). People who rape girls on the street are mostly overtaken by sexual urges and they usually regret what they've done deeply. Again, this is right only in the case of bisexuals, because they have urges for both sexes. Most of us find no sexual interest in people of our own sex at all. We don't put any effort into blocking such thoughts, there's just nothing there. If I try to think about male nudity or about having a romantic relationship with a good looking male friend, it's just utterly senseless and boring, and my mind wanders off to other thoughts as soon as I lose focus. And even if I was disciplined enough to force myself into thinking about these things for several hours a day for years, I'd still have uncontrollable feelings about woman. This is how heterosexuals as well as homosexuals works; none of us can pick and choose, we just have feelings for one sex or the other very early on. Those poor bastards who try sexual reorientation has to endure an almost inhumane amount of mental stress to get wherever they get, not only do they have to discipline themselves into thinking and fantasizing about something they have no interest in what so ever, they also have to suppress their natural feelings and urges at the same time. Those who succeed, has to endure this constant fight through their entire lives, while those who fall off the waggon, leaving their opposite sex for good and gets back to their own sex, do it with ease. What does that tell you? Again, you're using analogies that are only applicable to bisexual people. Anybody can enjoy a good high or unhealthy food, and anybody who tries it, likes it and thinks very much about it (drugs or junk food) might be in danger of getting addicted to it. Not everybody can enjoy both sexes, most of us are restricted to one. You're wrong, scientists did find physical difference in the brains of homosexuals, compared to the brains of heterosexuals. "In a sample of brains of homosexual men we did find that an area of the hypothalamus called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) contains twice as many cells as the SCN of a heterosexual group... It appears very unlikely that homosexual behavior as such would increase the neuronal number in any brain structure. Yet the development of SCN cell numbers suggest that the explanation for the large SCN in homosexual men most likely may be found in early brain development. At birth, the SCN contains only 13-20% of the adult number of cells, but in the postnatal period development is rapid. Cell counts reach a peak around 13-16 months after birth. The SCN cell numbers found in adult homosexual men were in the same order of magnitude as found around 13-16 months after birth. The normal pattern is that the cell numbers decline to the adult value of about 35% of the peak values. In homosexual men, therefore, this postnatal cell death in the SCN seems to have been curtailed." 1995 - Dick Swabb, PhD, MD Here's another one: "A growing body of empirical literature suggests that the brains of gay males are less masculinized than those of heterosexual males, reflected in visual-spatial task performance -- a measure of cerebral masculinazation and one in which heterosexual males usually surpass females. Several studies report that the cognitive performance of gay males is more typical of heterosexual females than heterosexual males. Furthermore, the brain waves of gay males while performing verbal and spatial tasks are more similar to heterosexual females than males or significantly different from both." 2002 - Kenneth M. Cohen, PhD And another one: "The anterior commissure, a fiber tract that is larger in its midsagittal area [the vertical plane that divides the brain into two halves] in women than in men, was examined in 90 postmortem brains from homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. The midsagittal plane of the anterior commissure in homosexual men was 18% larger than in heterosexual women and 34% larger than in heterosexual men." 1992 - Laura S. Allen, PhD Roger Gorski, PhD Obviously a creationist like yourself will simply argue that these differences might have appeared later on in life. And although the notion that the structure of your brain would change according to what sex you fantasize about is doubtful, at best, you're right that it might explain some of the differences. Not all though, some physical differences are from the time we're in our mothers wombs. Which makes it no choice of ours whether it's genetically or environmentally induced. Well, in the case of bisexuals, it obviously is a matter of choice.
The only way I can explain it without using the bible might be something like this. Suppose a father & daughter fall in love with each other. If they have sex behind closed doors what is wrong with it in your view? What is objectionable? Or suppose its a man & his dog. As long as he is not doing it public why shouldnt society accept people like that? The harm is done to society in that it degradates us as a people. We are told nothing is wrong with it and people generally use the example you just used to support their cause. Its an excellent argument because not many people can connect the dots as to why it is wrong. So the fact that many people can not answer the question, only brings more supporters to the homosexual cause. What also is objectional in how it affects me has to do with my children. I believe homosexuality is a choice (yes we can argue about that till we are blue in the face, but thats my beliefs) so when people spread propaganda that homosexuality is ok, that puts my sons at risk to believe that too. I know you are going to go with the argument that my beliefs are wrong and yada yada yada. I've already explained why I believe its a choice in this thread so I'm not going to repeat myself. We all have our beliefs and if you believe I do not have a right to force my beliefs on you, then you should not force your beliefs on me (that homosexuality is moral) So as long as people try to force their beliefs on me, I will keep forcing my beliefs on them.
Where do the urges come from? If you are not thinking about something, you do not get the urge. Something has to trigger that urge first. Also the argument about forcing homosexuals to marry the opposite sex is the same as forcing heterosexuals to marry the same sex is a strawman. Nobody forcing anyone to marry anyone. You always have a choice if you want to marry. If homosexuality isnt a choice how do you explain straight men that go to prison and have sex with men, but when they get out, they go back to women? The straight men in prison must enjoy sex with men, right? They enjoy hugging and kissing men and laying in bed together, but they claim to be straight. Then they get out of prison and never touch a man again. How does that work? I will tell you....it works just like I told you earlier. They focus on liking it, so they trick their minds into liking it. Many homosexuals just tricked their mind first to liking men before women so the choice seems like there wasnt a choice. To them it seems like they were born that way. When we are children we have no interest in sex and if the first time you think about sex before you really know how sex works and its about a boy, then you generally will end up being homosexual. Yeah its an unfair choice, but its a choice nontheless. This is why we have to protect our kids from seeing the homosexual lifestyle. You dont want their first thoughts of sex to be about a boy.
Why stop at the homosexual lifestyle Peil? Children should be shielded from anything that is morally debasing until they learn right from wrong, and can defend and stand by their choices i.e., until they are junior adults.
I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread. I'm not going to go back and read the last several pages. So I'll pick it up from here. "...that puts my sons at risk to believe that too". Why is it risky to believe that? What's the harm? LOL, you really think (and I stress the word 'THINK') that homosexuality is a choice? Are sexual urges a choice? ....think about it....dude, we can't even argue that seriously. If you can look back at your life and your think about how sexual urges affect you, you CANNOT tell me it's a freakin' choice. It's the antithesis of choice. You make it sound like your sons are at risk of 'choosing to be gay' because the don't see any moral problem with it. Even if they saw no 'moral problem' with being gay, they would certainly understand the problem of being social outcasts, especially as young adults when you just want to be the same as everyone else. There is no reason that anyone would choose to be gay. Also I would totally argue the basic premise that your sons are at risk of anything. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not trying to 'force my beliefs' on anyone either. I am not interested in fighting and name calling. I'm not trying to sound holier than though so I can feel better about myself. I am interested in changing people's minds because honestly, I see no issue whatsoever with people being gay. And I hate to the bigotry and hated they have to put up with. All of this debate that 'gay is wrong because it hurts people' is a house of cards. People get hurt in mixed martial arts, does that make it evil? If your sons see MMA they might choose to be MMA fighters and thus get hurt or killed. So your sons should not be exposed to MMA because they might get hurt. I can poke holes into any argument you can make that homosexuality is wrong. Wait, one more point that just occurred to me. 'Choosing' to be gay is choosing not to reproduce, which I think most scientists will tell you is the biggest motivation in our lives. That's quite a choice to make.... I might be done with this thread....might come back, but if you take God out of the debate (and I think you have to, because all any of us 'knows' about God is what somebody else told us) then all of you gay bashers have a case of the emperor's new clothes. Your arguments are hollow and without substance. You're clinging to lame arguments as to why you are justified in vilifying the gay lifestyle. It all comes down to this: 'Gay is wrong because God (someone) told me it's wrong"
There is a very clear difference here. Incest is prohibited because of potential birth defects in their inbred offspring. Again. Very clear difference. Dogs are not human adults. Like children, they cannot consent to sex. Yes, I'm gay. And by the way thanks for comparing my sexual orientation to incest and bestiality.
You are comparing a temporary choice of sexual partner with a permanent overall sexual orientation. Do you think the guys in prison would be hooking up with each other if there were women available instead? A similar situation is a gay man who is closeted and afraid to come out due to societal/family pressures. So he hooks up with women instead, usually with disastrous consequences. He would prefer men overall.
The urges come when people see or some other way experience whatever it is they desire. People doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about stuff they don't have a real interest in. Right, they can become like catholic priests. We know how that might turn out. Most people who are gay in prison are not that cuddly, and while they have sex with other men they most commonly imagine it's a woman. When people go for a very, very long time without being in contact with females, they're bound to lower their standards. Eventually, some of them will take anything with the slightest resemblance of a woman. Those few who actually gets cuddly or fall in love with men in prison are closet gays, or even more probable, bisexuals. This is a highly speculative theory based only on your introspective reasoning, and it's suspiciously convenient for your established religious beliefs. There's no scientific evidence supporting this claim, at all.
Think about what you just said for a second....Now...Tell me that we should be accepting of homosexual lifestyles and making sure its out in the open for all our children to see. So you admit that homosexuals are deceitful infiltrators of the catholic church just so they can rape children, right? So people lower their standards, or they are closet gays...which is it? In one breath you just said they choose to be gay and the next they dont. No scientific evidence against it either. So you also reason with your estabilished beliefs. In fact there are many things that I bet you believe that have no scientific evidence. Dark matter, exotic matter, the big bang, ect. Its really funny that science can come up with some crazy theories and NOTHING is off the table when it comes to science as long as it doesnt have anything to do with God. But thats another thread... I will leave you with one comment for those of you that think homosexuality is ok. If something does not benefit our society it must hurt it, correct? So what does homosexuality do to benefit us as a society? Do they produce offspring that can take care of them in their old age? No. That means when they are old, YOU will have to take care of them. Do they bring us together as a society? No. They cause us to fight among ourselves about their morality. Do they bring peace to others? No. They only bring peace to themselves. They do not care about society first...they care about themselves first and shaping society to fit THEIR worldview. If I poll 100 people who say they are 100% NEUTRAL to homosexuality, then I asked them if they want their children to be straight or gay(no saying they dont care...has to be a definitive answer), then 50 should say straight and 50 should say gay. Now...do you think that would ever happen? I do not know a single soul on earth that has ever said they hope they have a homosexual child. I have heard some say they wouldnt mind, but there is a big difference between not minding and wanting. I hope you appreciate that I didnt use God or the bible in answering your questions. Believe me, I would love to just utter the 4 simple words "because God said so" as i know it makes you atheists crazy I hope with my final comment i answered "why God said so" with logic that is acceptable to you. Now...lets let this thread die.