Posted: Jan 23 2004, 08:40 PM link: http://www.traders-talk.com/mb2/index.php?showtopic=5395&hl= 'I couldn't disagree more with Index Trader, and especially on the small account. At one time years ago I offered a $500 bounty for anyone who could show they had been successful at daytrading stock index futures over a three year period - no takers. When I used to market a manual on daytrading the stock index futures, I spoke with literally thousands of daytraders. It's more myth and folklore that there's a bunch of traders out there succesfully daytrading the futures. Actually I did have one taker on my bounty. But of course, he could never come up with any documentation. Lot of big talkers out there who when push comes to shove never can produce any real money trading statements. He eventually drifted into selling an expensive daytrading course and advertised about how he successfully traded for a living. When the CFTC went to investigate, they discovered that in his real money trading account he had been a net loser for six straight years. You don't want to get me going on the S&P daytrade course vendors' 'I once heard Jack Schwager wanted to write a book about your Average Joe trader who had been successfully trading for a living over a period of several years. The book never came to fruition because of a lack of *verifiable* applicants. The CFTC enforcement files are full of traders who claimed they succesfully traded for a living while in fact they were net losers'.
well there is Threei (vadym Graifer), Mark of velocity futures, and Don Bright - all on this forum, who seem to have documented evidence that they are indeed winning daytraders. But I do believe that - as is often said- over 90% of all traders fail.
Are you kidding, these 3 guys at least the last 2 you mentioned have other major sources of income, so much that their trading results don't affect their lifestyle. I don't really call that trading for a living . That said I don't think there are many home based traders who credibly and verifiably live exclusively off trading profits .
I am curious are we talking about the Garry Smith that writes for the The Street.com website? If so has he ever posted his account statements to verify his records since he is asking others to do the same? If it is this guy from the The street.com then he has a newsletter service that he hawks on that site and I would be very curious as to his performance. If it not that guy from the sreet.com then who is this Gary Smith? Thanks.
It's the one who wrote the book "How I trade for a living". I think he 's one of the rare genuine persons in the business you can listen to and trust .
Wall Street sells hope...greed...fear...never verifiable results...in fact...Wall Street has been built on hope and attitudes.... Don't you just love it when a high level analyst fervently gives an opinion...but never produces verifiable trading results...never... On the other hand...it is this mechanism that produces the paper that trades......this paper represents the hope of a future value without paying the interest on debt...cheaper capital...because stock indices rise over time...the process is justifiable...like enduring many failures in the face of freedom..for a single more enduring success.... Perhaps the odds for verifiable success are there for a hidden few...one only hopes that they are going to be one of them... One will never know.....for sure....they will never get to see the blotters...
Please that book was one of the A typical "Internet Boom Baby" traders books I ever read. A complete joke to a seasoned trader with multi year experience surpassing the 90's.
I don't know about all this. I can think of at least 10 traders on ET that are making a living off this. So, 3 years is the "critical time" for verifyable success? Will things get tough after 3 years? I don't know about that. I think I can say quite confidently that 2 years ago, my trading sucked a lot, 1 year ago my trading sucked, and today my trading is getting pretty decent. When I look at the slope of my equity curve which is rising, effectively defying the gradually contracting daily range (trading theoretically is harder now than a year ago and much harder than 2 years ago), then I really doubt my performance should just "crash" because I'm going for my 3rd year. I believe performance should be constantly improving rather than diminishing - given you put the work in. 2 years ago I did this full-time at night while running at business full-time at day (hardly sleeping). Eventually, I got too stressed. About a year ago, I made the jump to do this full-time exclusively. This has improved my trading considerably, and it's only gotten better. I learn so much more every day, and my results change accordingly. I think the people who write stuff like that "Gary Smith" are people who believe in scarcity and were themselves frustrated because they didn't "make it". They are generally people who don't understand the seriousness of this job, people who were looking for dreams and quick riches. They lost because they weren't qualified enough, and now they say "successful trading is impossible". To me, the reality is as simple as that: Trading is a demanding profession, like being a Lawyer, Doctor, or Computer Scientist. It takes a few years to learn. Any job that offers rewards, first requires people to put in effort, that's just the way it is. There's no such thing as a free lunch. How can some idiot in his right mind believe that you can read a few books, then trade the mini's and after a year say "you didn't make it"? Give me a break! I've been enthusiastic about looking at charts and markets for the last 5-10 years. There's a lot of stuff to learn. I started small, started position trading, then swing trading (now don't tell me this is impossible to do, too or I'll have a big laugh), and eventually, I migrated to day trading, and finally scalping. I think it's an evolutionary, but particularly learning and objective research process. Most people don't make it, because they don't realize that it's like becoming a lawyer. Becoming a trader requires time, due diligence, hard work, objective evaluation, and tough self-testing and self-honesty. Most people aren't honest with themselves. But traders, unlike doctors or pilots, have nobody to test their results and exam them. So people go slack, because it's "not easy" or "inconvenient". Nobody cares about the responsibility because you aren't responsible for the lives of 350 people like every time you fly a jumbo. Nobody cares about your account. So you need to accept the full responsibility yourself. I think 98% of people are unable to completely accept responsibility. And if you don't, then you're inevitably doomed to fail. This said, there are many traders who've done this for a long long time and have a good, stable life. My mentor has been doing this for over 20 years, starting from the pits, and still day trades futures, in fact yes, these particular e-mini's, and in lots much larger than most people on ET would ever get their hands on. Bottom line: Yes, it can be done. And by the way, it doesn't require much equity, either. If you're a decent futures trader, you should be able to make a living off as little as a $10-15K account. No other business in the world offers such a low entry barrier. But then, those $15K don't factor in the initial cost of "education"... Essentially, everythig is possible, and it's more in your mind than anywhere else. As Henry Ford said: "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - You're right!"