For my Christians Friends

Discussion in 'Politics' started by nyxtrader, Mar 23, 2008.



  1. hey traderNik,

    Nah, I try not to be judgemental but I will say, according to my belief, that not believing has already been judged not by me but by the Living God. I just like sharing what I believe and am in no way trying to force anything on anybody. You know, just laying it out there for you to think about.

    quote from traderNik

    The radical theists (such as yourself, as indicated by the text quoted above) say to us 'Can you prove that God does not exist? No? Well then, that's proof that God exists'. Nothing more needs to be said about either the willingness or the ability of people who would make such statements to think rationally.

    As far as being "radical" in the sense that I believe there is only one way to keep from spending an eternity separated from God (that being God's plan of salvation) I admit, I'm guilty. Beyond that I would say that you are the one being judgemental. Let's both face it. Neither of us are going to prove a theory either way. It wouldn't be a theory if we could. I'm just trying to figure out, since the advances in science that have been made since Darwin, how anyone could believe his theory anymore.

    quote from traderNik

    By the way, would you be willing to reveal what username you usually use here? I noticed you registered up a new one to post in this thread. Please remember, lying is un-Christian.

    lol, since we're talking about all this proof business, does the fact that I don't have many posts under my username prove that I am posting under a new username? Truth = just signed up on ET last week.

    It boils down to this, traderNik. There was a time when I was a non-believer. No man could have changed my way of thinking with a stick of dynamite. Thankfully, someone came along that cared enough about me to share God's plan of salvation. I can tell you it wasn't that person that caused me to change. It was God dealing with my conscience and opening my eyes to how far out what I was believing really was. After all, would you not want to know that what you are basing your beliefs on is right or wrong? All I can do is tell you what caused me to give it some thought and ultimately change the way I believe.

    Let's just say YOU are right and I still want to be a believer of the Bible. I will live my life under it's guidance... being kind, being a good husband/father, helping my fellow man, etc... When I die, I'm just DEAD. No Heaven, no Hell. I will have spent my days being a good person according to the Bible, no sweat... no big loss. I'm just dead.

    But now let's just say that I'M right and there IS a Heaven and a Hell. Where would you spend your eternity? I sure would hate to be in Hell and have the rest of eternity to think about how I passed up the opportunity to be in Heaven and in the presence of the Almighty God that created this whole universe.

    I know, I know I'm sounding like a fanatic Bible thumper but that's what I believe. I mean hey, I'm a Christian. I'm supposed to want to share the Bible and what Jesus has done for me and all mankind. IF we believe in Him :) rc
    [/QUOTE]

    And that's the problem: almost all traditional approaches to Christianity try to explain atonement, forgiveness and redemption in legalistic terms, seeking to define it in terms of conditions and technicalities. But it's like a blanket that's just too small, and no matter which way you pull it, you'll always expose another problematic part:

    If salvation was based on "good works", then it would be possible to "work one's way into heaven", so to speak. (At least if you perceive it in legalistic terms.)

    If salvation was based on faith, the result is even more fatal, as the minimum requirement wouldn't even involve being loving, but rely solely upon professing the right beliefs - which makes it even more problematic than the "good works"-approach, ethically speaking.

    Calvinism eliminates this by stating that it's God's choice, not Man's, thus making salvation unattainable by any effort of our own. All nice and well, until you acknowledge that there are people who are not saved, in spite of being just as deserving as the ones who receive the Spirit. At that point, this theology starts to go down the drain, as it effectively turns God into a demonic entity, a fickle monster who delights in hearing the screams of the tormented - for he would be capable of saving all and yet chooses not to.

    "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
    1. That there are three Gods.
    2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
    3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
    4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
    5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save. Thomas Jefferson
     
    #321     Apr 13, 2008
  2. Your conversational tone doesn't sound as misguided as some of the other religious zealots on here, but unfortunately, this phrase indicates that you're an extremely judgemental individual
    You have judged me and other like me because our actions are not informed by an appeal to a set of dictates that are based on blind faith in an unknowable, unprovable, unseeable entity. Your mistake is in assuming that a man cannot be free to 'do whatever (he) wants without guilt and without consequences' if his actions aren't informed by the same fantasy that you buy into. In fact, I am free to do whatever I want, and my actions are informed by a a secular morality which most probably outperforms your own. I do not determine what is right and wrong based on the contents of a 2000 year old book. I use my own moral compass.

    The fact that some people's compasses are not working properly does not mean that the proper functioning of your own compass, (being a good husband/father, doing the right thing, not hurting others, which by the way I believe you're capable of even though you're a Christian) indicates that anyone whose own compass is not manufactured by the same company that made yours is morally lost. There are plenty of compass companies out there, and it is false to say that if I get my compass from the Rationalist Compass Company, it means that I am seeking the freedom to 'do whatever I want [i.e. bad acts] without guilt and without consequences'. In fact we see that people who use your brand of compass are often the ones who are guilty of the most heinous moral transgressions, whereas secular humanists like myself generally don't get involved with the morality squad. Why do you think that is?

    Even though it seems to me that Christian zealots are perhaps the most immoral people on the planet, it probably isn't true - they are probably no more immoral than other religious zealots. Certainly we have seen that Islamic zealots are also hard to deal with. In the end, bad acts, the kind which you think should cause 'guilt or consequences' are obviously committed by a cross section of people, secular as well as theist.
    If there is a Heaven and Hell, I'll be looking forward to meeting God, since I have lived my life striving to do right by other people, be the best man I can be for myself and my family, and to be a positive member of society. I have great friends, a fantastic family and I realize more and more every day that my overwhelming sense is that I feel happier most days than the vast majority of the people I meet. In fact I am an extremely lucky individual. I have no fear of death, no fear that I am going to 'hell'. Hell, if it exists, is probably too full of people who killed, maimed, stole and raped in the name of religion.

    What's that? I can't meet god until I accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour? What a load of horseshit. It fascinates me that a rational man could possibly believe that 'heaven' consists of only Christians. What about Muslims? What about Jews? What about Buddhists?

    Sorry, man. There is no God or Heaven, in the sense that you mean it.
    As I said, you sound fairly reasonable in your general conversation. But please don't make a mistake. You don't sound like a fanatic Bible Thumper. You are a fanatic Bible Thumper, and that paragraph were you elucidate your feelings about how science (as exemplified by the theory of Evolution) is a massive conspiracy proves it. Why not just live your faith without trying to tell me that my way of living is less than yours? Interesting question, isn't it? The answer might not be very pretty.

    You'll have to forgive me if my tone is somewhat antagonistic. It's nothing personal since I don't know you. I am just disgusted by Christians who try to tell me that they know better than I do how to live a moral life, especially when so many of them are morally bankrupt.
     
    #322     Apr 13, 2008
  3. rcn10ec

    rcn10ec

    hello v,

    Yeah, I know we've got all these different people's ideas on what this or that means when the Bible says something about God's plan of salvation. According to one's knowledge, or lack thereof, of God's Word some of it is good...some of it bad. That makes it confusing for everyone. I just want you to tell me what the Bible itself says about it. Surely we are capable of coming to our own conclusions. God's way of getting to Heaven isn't that complicated. It can't be or it would leave a lot of people out and like it says in Scripture... It's not his will that any man go to Hell, it's our choice. rc
     
    #323     Apr 13, 2008
  4. rcn10ec

    rcn10ec

    traderNik,

    I'm sorry you feel that way 'bout me. Even more, I'm sorry you feel that way about God. I'll admit I do have strong convictions about my beliefs. I do like to talk about why I believe like I do. I like to talk to other people about their beliefs or their non-beleif.

    To me you kinda come across like I've "struck a nerve" or something. Maybe it's because, deep down, you're thinkin' I'm right. If what I say does bother you then maybe it's because your morals don't want to be compared to a Holy God's moral
    standard of which we ALL fall short of. That's where a Savior comes in.

    STEPS TO FINDING PEACE WITH GOD

    STEP ONE
    Gods Purpose For Man: Peace and Life

    God loves you and wants you to experience peace and life--abundant and eternal.

    The Bible says...
    "We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

    "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever
    believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

    "I (meaning Jesus) have come that they may have life, and have it more
    abundantly." John 10:10

    Why don't most people have this peace and abundant life that God planned for
    us to have?

    STEP TWO
    The Problem: Our Separation

    God created us in His own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us
    as robots to automatically love and obey Him, although His desire is that we do
    this. God gave us a will and freedom of choice. We choose to live our life according
    to our own will and way instead of living it for God. We choose to be disobedient to
    God while knowing that what we are doing is not right. This results in our separation
    from God.

    The Bible says...
    "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in
    Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

    People have tried many different ways to bridge this gap between themselves and God.

    The Bible says...
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads
    to death." Proverbs 14:12

    "But your iniquities (sins) have separated you from God; your sins have hidden His
    face from you, so that He will not hear." Isaiah 59:2

    No bridge reaches God...except one.

    STEP THREE
    God's Bridge: The Cross

    Jesus Christ suffered and died on the Cross and paid the penalty for our sin. He rose from
    the grave and bridged the gap between God and mankind.

    The Bible says...
    "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man
    Jesus Christ." 1 Timothy 2:5

    "For Christ died for our sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,
    to bring you to God." 1 Peter 3:18

    "But God demonstrates His own love for us in this; while we were still sinners,
    Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

    God has provided the only way. Each person must make a choice.

    STEP FOUR
    Our Response: Receive Christ

    We must trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior of our life and by personal invitation,
    turn our life over to Him.

    The Bible says...
    "Here I (Jesus) am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and
    opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

    "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the
    right to become children of God." John 1:12

    "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart
    that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

    Where are you?
    Will you receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior right now?

    Here is how you can receive Christ:
    1. Admit that you are a sinner and need God's forgiveness.
    2. Be willing to turn (repent) from your sins.
    3. Believe that Jesus died on the Cross for your sins and rose from the grave.
    4. Through prayer, personally invite Jesus to come in and take control of your life as
    Lord and Savior.

    Pray and mean this prayer:

    Lord Jesus,
    I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that You died on the Cross
    and rose from the grave. I want You to help me turn from my sins. I want You to come into
    my heart and life and I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. Amen

    God's Assurance: His Word
    If you prayed and meant this prayer, the Bible says...
    "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13

    Did you sincerely ask Jesus to come into your life? Where is He right now and what has
    He given you?

    The Bible says...
    "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourself,
    it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

    Receiving Christ, we are born into God's family through the supernatural work of the Holy
    Spirit who indwells every believer. This is called the regeneration, or the "new birth".

    This is just the beginning of a wonderful new life in Christ. To deepen this relationship
    you should:
    1. Read and study the Bible to know Christ better.
    2. Talk to God in prayer every day.
    3. Tell others about Christ.
    4. Worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is taught
    and preached.
    5. As Christ's representative in a needy and sinful world, demonstrate your new life by your
    love and concern for the physical and spiritual needs of others.

    This is what I believe. If this offends a bunch of people, well I'm not sorry for what it says but I am sorry if you don't believe it.
    There might be someone that DOES want to know about it and accept it. It's all about choices.

    If you are one that DOES NOT like it, well, hey this is a Christian board. rc
     
    #324     Apr 13, 2008
  5. You're right that I don't want my morals compared to a Christian God's morals, seeing as the Christian God seems to enjoy bringing untold suffering down on the heads of innocents, as vhehn and others have pointed out. I see you didn't suggest that I don't want to compare my morals to an Evangelical Christian's morals; it seems even you couldn't go that far, knowing what we know about the gap between what these people preach and what they actually end up doing.

    The only nerve you struck in me is the same one that gets struck every time a religious fanatic tries to tell me how to live my life.
    Actually, it isn't, and if you bring your fanatical Christian propaganda into any other areas of the board besides this one (P & R), your posts will be deleted.

    I've been through this argument with several of ET's resident religious maniacs (do a thread title search for ID if you want to find some of your brethren). That's why I didn't post in here for a long time. My last post to you. I hope one day you realize how wrong it is to preach to others when you are yourself imperfect.

    Welcome to ET. And by the way, your question about whether to simply go long a stock you like or to use options to simulate a long position is a common one; there's a ton of information on here that can help you understand both choices. You'll find that you get a lot of help if you show others that you've used the search function to do your own homework before asking your questions. Once you do this, there are a lot of very experienced guys on here that will weigh in (along with the inevitable noise and flames that you will get). Good luck in your trading.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On Ignore.
     
    #325     Apr 13, 2008
  6. Mvic

    Mvic

    #326     Apr 13, 2008
  7. rcn10ec

    rcn10ec

     
    #327     Apr 13, 2008
  8. Joab

    Joab

    I have been in many poverty stricken areas, I have also been stricken with disease and seen much suffering in my life by myself and many others.

    What I can tell you is those people that have truly found God and Christ are at peace, regardless of circumstance. It's just that simple.



    We ALL will die someday, the question is how do you want to go ?

    With peace, dignity and love or with fear and anger !
     
    #328     Apr 13, 2008
  9. Try reading before responding. The point was about "contradicted by overwhelming scientific evidence"

    There is rarely such a thing as "overwhelming scientific evidence". If you did not understand what I said, you should re-read. What I said was quite correct. If you are blowing it off, then you do not understand the major problems with science, especially coming from people who wave it, without much of an understanding of its power and limitations.

    Try again. If not, I will re-post it, in case you lost it.
     
    #329     Apr 13, 2008
  10. I notice that you didn't have the courage to own up to your misrepresentation of Einstein's words. That is par for the Christian zealot course. When confronted with evidence of his hypocrisy, the zealot just sticks his fingers in his ears and starts humming to himself. You should be ashamed... but you're not.

    How you can make another post after reading vhehn's dismantling of your absurd claim regarding Einstein, without at least acknowledging that you were completely wrong, is beyond me. You mentioned that you've suffered health issues. I wonder why? Did you ever consider that these two things might be related?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On Ignore.
     
    #330     Apr 13, 2008