You are correct in saying that my posts are my opinions since I already mentioned that its my 2 cents worth? I am just wondering why you disagree with what I said because I honestly stand by it. Choosing a trading career is just taking on a whole lot of risk for a career. There are systems put in place to weed out the unqualified and even within the banks, if you don't perform on the desk within a few months, you should probably choose a different career. So if you don't make it through this selection process, it just means you're not good enough. Pure and simple. Sometimes its not about the school though, I know of people who come from lower tiered schools who refuse to admit that they weren't qualified, just kept working and applying, finally ending up on the desks of smaller banks. But eventually they move laterally to higher ranked banks during the first 5-7 yearas of their careers. After which they venture out on their own if they don't make it to the prop desks internally. I think college grads (esp. in 2008) should understand this point and not take in the drivel that prop shops feed them just to keep believing in success on a desk at a bulge bracket after a 2 year stint with these shops.
Trading is risky? I don't understand. Starting your own business and becoming a billionaire is also risky. What's your path?
I meant trading is a risky career relative to other investment banking jobs. My point was that due to systems put in place, it is tough to get a trading position in a bank and even tougher to get into prop within the bank etc. And if you fail somewhere between starting on a trading desk in a bank and moving into prop or as head trader in flow, there isn't much transferable skills. Although I suppose if you were doing cash equities you could move into research? Or equity derivatives can move into structuring. But you get my point (I hope).
wtf, these kind finance jobs are easy to get. just say u will work for free, and only get paid when you make them money, win win, no risk entry for them, done deal.
Thats how the non-target school candidates get in. But when you pay 45k/yr for an education from Harvard, you tend to want to get paid while proving yourself. Leave the pro bono work to other guys.
Joetrade, you need to chill out with the FNYS hating. FNYS is advantageous over banks in some ways and disadvantageous in other ways. If you know you want to work on the buy side in equities, FNYS is an excellent place to start. Most kids coming out of college don't know exactly what they want and being in a bulge bracket bank's sales and trading program is an excellent option for them. Don't make it out like FNYS, or similar trading outfits, are terrible or in some ways beneath banks. Furthermore, you really don't know of what you speak. "Banks are not going to hire fnys or any other prop traders ever. Forget about that route." That's ridiculous. Prop traders switch from banks, to hedge funds, to trading firms, and all the way back routinely. There are MD's at bulge banks who used to work at FNYS and there are plenty of former bulge bracket traders who trade at FNYS. You've posted about 15 messages on different threads bashing FNYS. (For the record, your claims about yourself and your past vary from post to post.) What's the deal? Stop acting like you are an expert on this subject when you are obvious under 25 and have no experience beyond a supposed few rounds of interviews. That being said, if anyone wants to know about FNYS, message me.
1) I don't understand what you are driving at, you say there are pros and cons to being at a prop firm, the same can be said for being at a bank, it is just my opinion that the pros outweigh the cons in the latter case! You need to relax and understand what I am saying. 2) In whatever posts I ever wrote, I have always maintained that FNYS is the top choice out there in the category of prop firms since they pay an actual salary. If you have the time, go read up on my past posts. So why this impression that I am dissing FNYS? 3) I maintain that grads who couldn't get a bank job and would join ANY prop firm hoping to move from there back to the bank trading desk, is being hopeful. I am sure there are ex-fnys traders working at banks, but did they go from college-fnys trainee-fnys trader- bank trader? I doubt it, no ways to prove this either ways. 4) This is an old post, but I suggest any grads in the situation of being jobless in the current job market, to think carefully about joining a prop firm. Yes I am under 25 (duh), but know enough about the industry to differentiate the scams from the real deals. Not saying that fnys is a scam, but a lot of other firms are. So I guess in your world, you need to be what? 40 to know everything? I am sorry to hear that and good luck to you (and your employers). So for any grads nearer to my age, listen to my advice with a pinch of salt, I am biased towards providing a perspective for people at the entry level.
A fair enough response. The point that I was getting at was your mainly negative tone towards FNYS. They are a proprietary trading firm, but they are not a daytrading shops such as SMB. I say this having in mind FNYS's attitudes towards recruitment (both entry level and experienced), training, portfolio and risk management, and trade duration/style/size. Also, I think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the buy side. While banks do run proprietary trading books, most bank desks run only small prop books, hence they are sell side traders. You seem to know your stuff, although you lack perspective which is to be expected of someone your age, so I won't go further into detail about the differences. What I will say is that an AT at FNYS most likely would not wish to switch over to a large bank. It is more likely they would wish to stay at FNYS or to move on to another spot on the buy side, such as a hedge fund. As such, it makes perfect sense for someone graduating college to begin his or her career at a small, reputable trading outfit (FNYS, Jane Street Capital, SIG, etc.) or a hedge fund if he or she is certain of the side they wish to be on. For example, running a long/short equity portfolio has little to do with selling CDS, and many who enter S&T training programs at large banks get put on desks like that which have nothing to do with equities. Don't confuse "daytrading firms" with legitimate prop operations. That being said, I wish you the best of luck on your Wall St. career. Note - I know Jane Street and SIG make markets, but still, you get my drift. Sorry if this response has type-o's. I'm kinda rushed...
1) My negative tone was towards prop shops trying to take advantage of current market turmoil to advertise a less-than-legit non-paying job for college grads. I made the distinction for FNYS simply because they pay a salary which is obviously important. Outfts like SMB are just a dressed up retail prop firm. 2) Buy-side in trading = prop trading = committing a firm's own capital into investments in order to profit off investment ideas/strategies etc. Sell-side in trading = trading client order or flow = flow trading? My fundamental understanding is flawed? Someone please clarify if it is. You said "most bank desks run only small prop books, hence they are sell side traders." THIS I don't understand, why does size have anything to do with which side you are on? Most banks generate a large portion of their revenues off flow trading and relatively a smaller portion of their committed capital is in prop, is that what you are saying? 3) Most AT at FNYS won't want to go to a bank but rather remain in prop trading with a hedge fund. Well funny you should say that because I once had a conversation with a AT at FNYS who admitted that he wanted to get into a bank's desk (flow or prop) in the future after training. But snide remarks aside, I understand why any trader would want to stay in prop firms/hedge funds. 4) Since you brought the comparison up, I don't feel that FNYS is in the same league as SIG or Jane Street, aside from the fact that they are market makers, it is purely apples and oranges comparison, but also that the latter 2 firms have good reputations and hire solely from ivys (and being able to attract significant number of top tier people). And from a salary perspective, the SIG and Jane Street guys offer much more for entry level . Even the interviewing process of these 3 firms are on different standards. 5) I held my conversation for FNYS based on asset class, mainly cash equities and ignoring fixed income etc since FNYS doesn't do stuff like that. So let's leave out the other asset classes right now. Derivatives trading vs cash equities is completely different, the former requires knowledge of stochastic calculus, pricing models etc. Cash equities is more fundamentals based or trading by technicals. Going to Credit Derivatives market, which I don't know much of in detail, but you need basic understanding of gaussian copulas, knowing the correlation trading strategies (which resulted in all these losses at banks) etc. Yup, so they are different animals to begin with. 6) I do differentiate FNYS from other retail prop firms like SMB, Hold Brothers etc. I must add that FNYS does allow positions to be held overnight, but as to the duration, that I can't comment whether it is 2 days or 2 months. To me FNYS is rated above retail prop but below banks and specialized market making firms (SIG, Jane Street). But again, it is MY opinion.
Is a very solid place to work. For all the haters out there, it is clear that they have not worked there and are misinformed. Without going into details about the shop or my experience with it, I was brought on as a senior trader, given an extremely handsome draw (akin to VP -director salaries at BBs) and a generous % of my profits. I had complete autonomy over my portfolio, all the capital I could ask for, and incredibly smart guys to bounce ideas off of all day. I will say that If you are a trader with a track record of steady and consistent profits, FNY will take a look at you. I have a lot of respect for the way they run their business and if you aren't making money you will not cut it there. That said, its a GREAT place for traders with an edge who are looking to scale up and need the backing. For a college grad, its a bit tougher to rise thru the ranks and establish yourself, it will take a few years and hard work, but then again, anything worth attaining takes hard work. Good luck all.