Faith is way overrated!!!

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by loza, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. loza

    loza Guest

    ...or the Wisdom of the Kalama Sutta

    Buddhism and perhaps the Hindu traditions are the closest organized religion that kept the Ancient Wisdom philosophy. The Ancient Wisdom says; everything is part of something greater and all is part of an infinite, transcendent, unimaginable “thing” we call "God".
    The last millennium had brought us a lot of wonderful scientific research, but it also brought scientific materialism and the negation of every single aspect of transcendental elements in the mankind: physical, mental and spiritual. They claim:
    Our mind is but the lump sum of biochemical processes in the body. there is nothing beyond, all things not quantifiable are hocus pocus

    In reality, we are spheres of elements that are interconnected. Touching one affects the whole.
    This thinking takes us into what is called mysticism. From the 'geek' word mystos:mist, fog. We each accost the individual research process in our own bodies. As the Kalama Sutta states "don't believe me because I say so; apply it and see for yourself."

    Buddha’s last sermon was in the place called Kalama. In this sutta, Gautama Buddha passes through the village of Kesaputta and is greeted by the people who live there: the Kalamas. The Kalamas greet the Buddha and ask for advice. According to the Kalamas, many wandering holy men and ascetics pass through the village, expounding their teachings and criticizing others'. The Kalamas ask the Buddha whose teachings they should follow. In response, he delivered a sutta that serves as an entry-point to Buddhist tenets for those unconvinced by revelatory experiences.
    The Buddha advised:
    • “Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing,
    • nor upon tradition,
    • nor upon rumor ,
    • nor upon what is in a scripture,
    • nor upon surmise,
    • nor upon an axiom,
    • nor upon specious reasoning,
    • nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over,
    • nor upon another's seeming ability,
    • nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher."

    Most religious people approach the higher realm without the necessary personal empirical experimentation needed to coalesce/understand/apprehend/realize that which they are speculating upon. They listen to some radio guy or TV evangelist or neighborhood preacher.
    The church and the community are nothing more than a veritable “round table” of great speculations over subjects about which they know little.
    They are akin to virgin teenagers speculating about sex. One may have had ONE experience and he is telling the others how it was, then the others using great imagination try to relate and understand but of course they will be unable unless they reach that experience. They all look at him as and expert and ready to follow him to great conquests…(like they followed Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc)

    These “round tables” are good and necessary because they create the intellectual disposition and curiosity to tread the path. BUT, they have to be discarded, once one starts the path.

    This is precisely the difference between DEEP, personal experience and superficial learnedness and blind belief. Faith should be reserved for personal life, and even at that should never be blind.
     
  2. not the Faith I know
     
  3. loza

    loza Guest

    Do you know Curtis Faith? How long?
     
  4. True, there is nothing sacrosanct about faith in and of itself. In its inception, it was used as a tool to eclipse (edge out, destroy) the reality I sometimes call "Go(o)d". Faith would (if it could) destroy the World of Go(o)d in favor of building a world of "good and evil" (good-and-not good)...a paradox. Faith is responsible for all time/mass (substance), which remain experiences while they are yet believed in. And so, it can be argued that faith has condemned us all to hell. And so, here we seem to be.

    Faith needs to be converted from a tool of magic to a method of miracles if its power is going to be harnessed toward the restoration of the good (Go(o)d). Faith is like a sword of war that needs to be converted into a plowshare of peace. It needs to be redirected. It's direction must be pointed back to where we came from...from Go(o)d. Only then can anyone say he is a "convert".

    Christ!
     
  5. Belief is ... well belief.
    Faith is a living creative substance of things hoped for and that in itself is a type of evidence before they happen.
    (For those who have it and have experienced it)

    Belief is basic to the design of man and part of his creative ability and discovery processes.

    Absolutely nothing gets done without belief. No painting was ever made without it.

    Because if you don't believe you cannot see. It is a creativity paradox.

    All arguments to this are based on belief and what one wants to see (or in bitterness wants to manipulate others to see or not see)
    or understands based on their prior discovery and belief structure.

    Faith is not belief ... though they are similar, one gives you reference to how the other works
    ... belief utilizes elements of asking seeking and knocking in discovery and desire to see or create
    ... while faith becomes active when the door of discovery opens or you have ears to hear.

    The interesting thing is ... people form belief ... whether for good or bad,
    malicious and venomous, or wise and gracious.

    The vicious and venomous have trained their belief structures away from growing in faith. (Or any possibility of it being real)

    Often they are found making angry and nasty efforts to stop others from growing in that direction.

    Discovery is healthy ... asking, seeking and knocking are basic to the process ...

    Just remember ... a bitter root does defile many people ...

    It goes before those who are mockers ... their maligning drips from their mouths like sweet honey
    ... but if you swallow it ...
    it will rot at your inner parts and draw you into the company of fools
    who mock what they cannot and are unwilling to understand.

    Sad ... but hate is hate ...
     
  6. loza

    loza Guest

    Good rebuttal. There CAN BE personal experience based faith (I guess this is the jest of what you are saying.)
    There is a faith in the self, (the core, personal attribute of a creative person and belief, well you have said it..is on the surface.
    Faith can be a resignation to a higher power, while acknowledging
    our limitations.
     
  7. Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
    Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992
     
  8. This what you believe.
    It is great that people have that freedom.
    To believe as they wish.

    The danger of that is when it becomes "anti-belief."
    Meaning ... the discovery of whatever sums up our belief structures
    is based on proving positives and experiencing negatives.

    Applying belief "against" discovery rather than "towards" discovery is abnormal in human development.

    Behavioral and social disorders of the worst kind arise from that error
    establishing destruction or demise at the individual, social and national levels.

    Depression, savant, rage and criminal action are just a few examples on the individual level.

    Oppression, repression and totalitarianism are just a few examples on the social and national levels.

    Discovery and growth are normal and healthy for people ... when they stop that,
    it is usually recognized as being abnormal ... either, sick, oppressed, retarded, or dead.


    An "anti-belief" structure is by definition a cop-out and evidence
    of a twisted impetus towards these abnormal human conditions.
     
  9. Yeah ... kind-of.
    You seem to be a "genuine" person and have a heart interested in discovery. That is so kewl.
    Discovery of becoming a spiritual person, I believe has such great rewards.

    Religion (oppressive, self-righteous, judgmental belief)
    Rebellion (oppressive, bitter, judgmental "anti"-belief)

    Well ... they both are poisonous and equally deadly.
    Makes for a tough gauntlet for those who really are passionate in their search for truth, believing and discovery.
     
  10. Hangin it up for today. Cya tomorrow.
     
    #10     Feb 2, 2010