Kia and Samsung make commodities. I keep hearing this garbage about cheap high tech researchers waiting overseas like I heard the same garbage during the 80's that the Japanese will lead the way and dominate the technology field in the future. And what happened? Microsoft made the operating system, Intel made the chips.... American companies dominated and will continue to lead the way. Foreign countries serve as cheap labor for companies to take advantage of and its not that the US companies are commanding people to take low wages, its the foreign govts. who are imposing this onto their own people. This rhetoric that overseas workers are a threat only relates to the grunt work. The real money is in the patents and R&D. Hire cheap labor and bask in the profit margins.
Great thread guys, very mature comments. I live in Japan and almost every month there is an article about how Japanese companies are increasing their production facilities in the USA. This is to the short-term detriment of the labour market here but ultimately ensures the survival and growth of the companies. Being a expat for many years, and 4 different countries, makes me feel quite relaxed about globalisation. I will move wherever is 'right' at the time; and I think travelling and adapting in a international world is going to get easier and attractive to many.
Well, I keep hearing this garbage, that just because similar things happened in the past and worked out just fine, things will undoubtedly always work out in the future. The assumption that history always repeats itself is wrong. It often does, but certainly not always. The Roman Empire was attacked many times. It did not fail the first attack, it did not fail the tenth attack either. But eventually it did fail. It was actually a process - one small piece of the empire at a time. You seem to completely ignore the fact that we live in a totally differenet world now. In just about every respect it has nothing in common with the world even 10 years ago. Technological, logistical and political changes have been huge. Advancements in computing, internet, telecommunications, airline industries, collapse of Communism and end of the Cold War. It's just a tip of the iceberg of changes, yet this is more then enough to invalidate any historic comparison. You keep insisting that it's only grunt work which is in danger, ignoring all the rest of the argument made here, that its pretty much all IT, Accounting, Engineering etc. Jobs ranging from $50K to $250K. If this is grunt work, I do not know what is not. Let alone the fact that it can happen with science and R&D in the future as well. You keep insisting that it's good for bottom line of american companies and nobody's arguing. I get a very warm feeling when I realize that Bill Gates and Larry Ellison will become wealthier yet. The issue here is not them, though, but the american middle class, those former IT workers, accountants, engineers etc who may not be able to find jobs even remotely comparing in quality and pay to the the jobs they just lost.
Talking about expats.. Dutch companies like Unilever and Royal Dutch have cut down heavily on expats in recent years, due to the availability of adequate local management. Actually locals are favored, because of the better understanding of local culture. Expats programs are now reserved for their top-management trainees. Not only "grunt workers" are facing increased competition. The ones, who will really thrive, are the people that have the opportunity to employ their resources, there where the largest comparative advantages can be had, the likes of Bill Gates and Michael Dell. Why would the average American worker have an edge above any Indian or Chinese with a similar education? The fact that the average Joe has prospered for the last 50 years or so doesn't mean it will go on forever. History shows that empires rise and fall.
Dont be so sure about that. If you are looking for adavances in tech and intelectual property you migh have to look again. Think Sweeden , Finland ,Japan for starters. Take a look again and you may be surprised. Also look at the provenance of the patents been filed in the US.
The bottom line is jobs are going to go whether we like it or not. The BIG QUESTION is, what are these now unemployed IT, Accounting and Engineering workers going to do? It is not practical to think that all these people will be involved in Science or R&D. What are these people REALISTICALLY going to do? If one was in this position, what should they be doing now? Perhaps a devaluation of the dollar would make American employees more competitive? Another possibility is that, once the jobs are gone, the companies will follow. Why would a company need an American address, when most of their operation is overseas? Let us brainstorm and see if we can come up with REALISTIC alternative occupations. Has there been any study made about this subject with a forcast of possible future job/business directions in the USA.
One of my programmer friends made over $100 k annually between 1998 and 2001. He was laid off by Chase in October 2001(few weeks after 911). He cannot land another job. He'll leave US for his motherland next month. Another IT consultant friend has been teaching in a Community College since late 2002. The third one was axed in June 2001. He became an IT recruiter in November last year. Since the labor market is still soft, recruiters have a hard time to earn the placement fees. He has been looking for another job for few months. The fourth one was an IT manager. He was laid off in March. He accepted a IT contract position at California and left New York in May. It seems that even people with advanced degrees have a hard time under current jobless recovery situation. There is no easy fix for this problem....................... http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdge&storyID=4017288 :eek: :eek: :eek:
You know, our desk has been looking for programmers - he intreviewed a lot of people, but they all sucked. We found a few for salaries much bigger then 100k and hired them - and they all already had a job and switched. Anyone who actually is something already has a job and is being pestered by headhunters to switch to a new one, everyone else is crying foul and refuses to educate themselfs. Once I spoke to some guy on the subway who happend to be a laid-off COBOL programmer - he was complaning that his company did not train him...There are jobs out there, but you have to be good. The days when someone was able to land a job as a programmer because he took a 3-week java course are long over.
To certain extent, that is true. If you think that candidates for Java positions are bad, try to conduct some interviews for C++ programming positions. It will be even worse. I do have my own share of terrific experience with highly paid programmers and IT consultants at Wall Street. In the past three years, tens(maybe hundreds) of thousands of computer-related professionals in US have lost their jobs. Do all of them suck ? Similarly, Merrill Lynch got rid of about 25,000 people between June 2000 and January 2003. Are all of them incompetent ?
I am talking about c++ positions. Some people had no C++ experience and they still put c++ on their resume, just to get an interview. We needed people that had some quantitatve skills, but nobody (with one notable exception) was even able to multiply two matrices. No. But the ones that were any good already have a job. The ones that suck will stay home and eventually drop out of the IT jo market, just as the housewifes dropped out of it couple years ago. As I said, while there is no shortage of IT professionals, there is a clear shortage of good IT professionals.