Experienced Trader looking to open account with min 25K deposit

Zr1Trader · May 25, 2011

Quote from WinItAll:

ZR1 and the other amateur after him - Obviously the two of you are new to trading and because of that you don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about.

The biggest advantage that any trader had was the ability to read the tape, the order flow and know what the specialist was doing. Since you two amateurs feel it necessary to interject your uneducated opinions please pay attention. I started in about 1995 as one of the only floor traders on the NYSE to trade his own account, since you probably don't know most brokers on the floor only traded customer accounts for commissions. To put it bluntly, day trading on the floor was automatic, you knew where all the orders were, who was buying, who was selling and how much they had left. Also, there was an uptick rule which meant far less whipping around on no volume. When the exchange began to become more computerized I moved "upstairs", you probably don't know what that means because you have no experience but look it up if need be.

After the exchange went mostly electronic in the mid 2000's it was still a slow paced market... meaning you could get off size... Once again the fact that you said the HFT's don't affect you is just a perfect example of what insignificant volume you trade and how little you know. Before we moved to the fully hybrid model, traders like myself were able to take 50k - 200k share positions of stock within a tight price range without running the price of a stock up 2 dollars. For example, I could buy a 50k block of a stock like amzn, lvs when it was 100 dollars, goldman, etc without moving the price up and without having 50 programs jump in front of the order as soon as it was entered. Since you are probably trading 100 - 500 share lots of stock to you it might not matter, but to an actual trader being able to take size within a tight price range is extremely important. The way the HFT's work is off of big orders coming in, so now I can probably only gather 10k shares in the same price range I used to be able to gather 50k shares. Also, if I sent my order to the market it would be matched by the specialist unlike now when my order would just sweep through the market 2 dollars. My order would go 2 dollars through the market to get filled because all the HFT's would pull their offers as soon as my order came close to it.

So, like I said, the market has changed due to HFT's to a point where day trading size is no longer viable and traders have to expand their time frames. So now my shortest term trades are multi-day and longer trades are months. And I guarantee you that any former day trader that did not adapt to this method is probably broke by now. Obviously you are new b/c if you weren't then you would know that about 90% of all daytrading firms, many which were around for over a decade, all of a sudden went out of business at exactly the same time... It's not a coincidence that it happens as soon as HFT became the majority of the markets volume.

Bottom line is that for anyone who isn't a piker the HFT's made a big difference in terms of day trading. Longer term time frames however are completely unaffected because the price of a stock will always go where it is supposed to and in a longer time frame quick dollar moves don't matter. To conclude, ZR1, instead of reading and learning you felt it necessary to state your incorrect and unwanted opinion. From what you wrote anyone with any experience can tell that you are a joke, why don't you look up a list of prop firms from a year ago and see how many day trading firms are still in business.

This is the last I will address you and I usually wouldn't spend time and energy responding to someone like you but I think it's important that the people that frequent this site to learn are provide accurate info.
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Yes you're right I do trade pretty small, I was thinking that since dumb little me can make money intraday that anybody still could. I trade in just about any futures market intraday without problems. Sorry to have misunderstood your size problem. My advantage over you is that I can get in and out quick , you can't .

Thank you for your explanation, and yes dumb little me learned something new today.

Regards

Zr1Trader · May 25, 2011

Would you have these problems in es , zb ? You can't profit intraday in these instruments even with your size ?

timcar · May 25, 2011

Quote from WinItAll:

The biggest joke is that these CBSX firms that try to sell you on locking up your money for a year in addition to trying to take 5%-10% of profits b/c it's CBSX rules.

Is there nowhere that just offers a straight up deal where they make an override on commissions? I think it's crazy that some of these firms have the audacity to ask for a percentage of profit when they have no skin in the game. I would rather just put up more money and trade 4-1 and pay nominal commission rates.
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This statement is the reason why Prop shops are disappearing.

They offer the individual trader no real incentives (from what a tradition online broker has) and they want a cut of the traders profits. What a joke.

Froglet · Jun 2, 2011

Quote from WinItAll:

What the trading floor looks like means nothing... half the guys I know that do well trade in places like that and half trade in a tiny office with 5 or 10 guys and make a killing every year... and if you saw how they dressed for work you would think they were homeless.

I would love to see firm that offers "education" show their real turnover rate, especially considering that you're saying that they only support day trading. Day trading is a dead art on a day to day basis, that business is over. The only way to make money is multiday swing and long term trading. Any firm that is still "teaching" day trading as a way to make a living is just taking money from people who can't afford to lose it and giving them no chance to be profitable.

I guarantee you that the owners and profitable traders on bigger floors like that barely day trade at all anymore themselves because it's not profitable, but they have no problem "educating" college kids and beginners to day trade. Very rarely are intraday moves tradable anymore, with the exception of special situations like lnkd and yndx.
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I am interested in seeing you write just a bit more about this. Why?

There seems to be a lot of egos and machoism going when people talk about 'execution' speed, slippage, and all that jazz. Anybody that has tried to chase pennies in today's world would probably be broke by now. The approach is definitely different. A sucker that feels egotistic would do a large trade at a price, only to expose his hand and get shafted.

HFT has changed it. How can people not see it w/ their own experiences? I know I have lost money, because I just cannot beat the computer, and the numbers they 'train' suckers to read is just BS.

But what I don't get is, how people are constantly saying they are able to beat the computer w/ a billion monitors, and flashing level 2 quotes.

Now, you wrote something about long term, and saying a stock price has to go where it has to go. But how would you know? If so, why not venture into calls?

Perhaps a bit more insight in terms of swing trading would be better? I do know the gap up and run days are like 'bonuses' for us all.

cloudy · Jun 4, 2011

Thanks for the interesting info about the floor Winitall. I have noticed bars on a 5 minute /ES are hard to read a lot of the time. The guru I listen to currently says it's due to HFT automated trading.

If you don't mind winitall, since you were on the NYSE floor, can you comment about Larry Levin, and in particular his "Trading Advantage" training program(s)? www.tradingadvantage.com

Where he takes one on a visit of the floor and teaches clients in a group how to day trade /ES.

youtellme · Jun 5, 2011

jc trading. they are maybe one of the best, if not the best firms out there.

gselsidi · Jun 11, 2011

To validate Winitalls opinion about HFT here is an article posted in another thread.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-06/schonfeld-to-fire-50-traders-as-speed-curbs-profits.html

2. Win I don't understand why do you need a prop-firm for if you are using your own money??? You can simply buy options if you want leverage, or even do FX trading for even more leverage. Level 2 you can get yourself???

3. I am in NYC too, maybe we can meet up and bounce ideas off eachother. I'm interested in swing medium term trading too. I think i got a pretty good system down just with simple EMA crosses, S&R, and Fibs.

Anyway shoot me a message if your interested.

On another note, Are there any reputable prop firms left? And i don't mean the highly selective ones that hire ivy grads. Are there any reputable normal prop firms that free training possibly paid, and firm capital?

non of these pay for training bullshit ones.

Thanks

EvOTrAdEr · Jun 19, 2011

Another one of those "I want to learn a skill that will last me my whole life but i want you to pay me to do it" guys.

dude, firms like wts and capital traders group and LES trading offer free training for broker-dealer customers. I think CTG and WTS have a $1500 minimum deposit and give like 50k bp and all charge less than 50 cents per 1k shares (the last time I checked) if you want to trade that program's style.

Unless you have the qualifications (MBA or ivy league degree) than putting up a deposit is the only way you're going to get access to large amounts of firm capitals (retail brokers provide 4:1 max. the case I give up about 33:1).

Those are the two choices. some firms charge $5000+ for training, some give it free with a small deposit. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Trading is a business that requires managing risk. if you can't manage your own risk capital, how can you cover a large firm's books? Either way the skills you learn will be useful for longer than the length of your stay with that firm. Can that be said when working at a bank? If you want to be an independent trader trading their own style, you need to grow up dude. seriously.

brenden · Jun 25, 2011

For training and professionalism WTS in NY is the tops
i know a few acquaintances at WTS and its really good!
good support cast

Tradeindia · Jun 26, 2011

Quote from brenden:

For training and professionalism WTS in NY is the tops
i know a few acquaintances at WTS and its really good!
good support cast
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Do they make any money?