This may be splitting hairs but the Iran - Iraq conflict was not arab against arab but arab against persian. And Saddam eliminated Kurds (a different ethnic group who really don't have a homeland but are stretched between Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc.).
One continues to wonder why Islamic Terrorism continues to be a threat to the Civilised World... it continues to target Christians, Jews and indeed anyone it classfies as "Kuffir" (Infidel) in the pursuit of "Jihad" (Holy War)... the most dangerous thing about this form of terrorism is that those perpetrating the terror believe that they are doing it in the name of "Allah" (God) and have become so brainwashed that they look forward to "Martyrdom" (getting killed in the course of killing many innocent people)... I am not attacking Islam (although some have questioned the premise of this religion's structure on professional sites such as http://main.faithfreedom.org) but I am suggesting that there is a true lack of democratic accountability in most of the world's Muslim countries... the lack of freedom plus the extreme interpretations of the "Koran" (muslim Bible) give rise to an explosive concoction... I am attacking the Islamic concept of Jihad, as explained on the following amateur (but effective) site that I found on the web http://www.geocities.com/jihadisucks/index.html The defeat of Russia as a Communist entity and the welcoming of Democratic Russia as an ally, into the NATO Council and the G8 Forum, has strengthened the Global Coalition against Terrorism... the world is no longer split on the capitalism versus communism divide... the world is split on Civilisation versus Medieval Anarchical Islamic Terrorism... we have no choice but to win this war... part of the solution is to bring moderate Islamic countries over to our side (like we have done with Jordan and Egypt); the other part of the solution is to take decisive pre-emptive military action against those that wish to continue in their Evil Doing... We must seek to destroy the seeds of Islamic Terrorism, by liquidating the tyrants who breed Evil Doers amongst their populations... this will inevitably involve a process of regime change... once we have removed Saddam and installed a new and better leader, the people of Iraq will ultimately thank us... but we must not stop with Iraq... we must continue the process with Syria, Libya, Pakistan, Iran, Somalia and several others... the model for our target countries would be something like Jordan or Egypt, which are both moderate Islamic countries, friendly to the West, in which the people have enough domestic freedom that they do not take up terrorism in any meaningful numbers against the West (who they currently label as the scapegoat for everything that is wrong with their godforsaken countries)... God Bless America, the Civilised World and all moderate Muslims currently being oppressed by their tyrannical leaders...
Yes, that is true, the "Persians" are not really "arab". Yet the fighting was shiite against sunni. One sect of Islam against another. Since all of the fighting has had it's basis in religeous differences, this was really what I was refering to. Sorry for the mistake.
No offence intended. I've done business with Christians-Jews-Arabs. Interesting the pattern turned out in that order.[Learning spanish,senior, also] Sticky situation. I think the Mayor of NYC [could ] have taken that multimillion check from that Arab . Then mentioned he was giving part of it to Church, Synagog and ''you want the check back now???????????????????????????? Otherwise keep it. Good read. The pattern mostly has been Islam terrorists against Christians-Hebrews, Americans.Sure capital punishment, military action works! How many NAZI ypu see lately.????Singular is intentional! ______________________________ War and trading ''For by wise counsel you shalt make thy war and in a multitude of counsellors there is safety.Proverbs 24;6 Solomon was a trader-king, did business with Christians-Jews-Arabs LUV, Murray
Hard to believe that so many distortions of reality could fit into one paragraph! Please understand that I sympathize with the plight of today's Palestinians. But re-writing history is not the way to approach any kind of solution. Someone said that I implied that the jews were good and the arabs bad. If you read what I said, I said no such thing. Not even close. I think the whole situation is very sad. I think that the Palestinians are getting a bum rap for the actions of the extremists among them. And furthermore, I think (as I already expressed) that the extremists have no real concern for the people they claim to represent. But their oppression makes them easily manipulated. How can anything be sadder than a family losing a child? The only thing I can think of sadder than this is for that family to be paid and encouraged to support further "martyrdom". Why don't the leaders themselves stand up and actually put themselves at risk? Arafat and Bin Laden are cowards....pure and simple. Saddam is so paranoid he has his own family members executed just in case. So as I said before, the only real solution is education. And money. Hard to find a suicide bomber that is willing to give up a life that is worth living. What kind of leaders take pride in the killing of innocents? American military leaders apologize for civilian casualties in Afghanistan. Israeli military leaders apologize for civilian casualties in attacks on Hamas leaders. Al Qada and Hamas TARGET civilians. How can this be justified? How can they expect civilization to react to these tactics? Yes, there is a right and a wrong when it comes to tactics. This is no reflection on the people themselves...only on their leaders. But even so, on Sept. 11, the Palestinians were dancing in the streets of the west bank until Arafat realized that this was not a good image for their cause. Did the people really celebrate the deaths of innocent Americans (and arabs and everyone else as it turned out)? Or did they misperceive the events of that day because they are so conditioned to hate everything that is not endorsed by the extremist elements who give them guidance. What do they really have to celebrate in their sad and poor and hungry existences? If they had an education and a future to look forward to, they would cease to hate and begin to prosper.
the biggest problem the palestinians have is that they are poor. Unfortunately you can't give them aid because people like Arafat will divert it for their own personal gain or for terrorism. I wonder exactly how wealthy Arafat really is. Probably richer than Bin Laden.
The EU funnels billions into their hands. Guess what they spend it on? Give you a hint, its not: education, health care, social programs. The hard truth is that the leadership is interested in a continuation of the conflict because that is how they retain power. Similar to all despotisms: claim an outside force is threatening the country and rally the loyal followers behind you, if anyone dare to question you, label them a heretic and an enemy spy. It works for: Syria, Iran, Iraq, NKorea, Lebenon, Palestine, etc.
And yes, terrorism does pay. Not for the suicide bombers (maybe a little for their families), but they are just brainwashed pawns. If you don't believe that there is a profit motive for Saddam and Arafat, then I suggest you give it a little more thought. Now, in my opinion that is a pretty big claim. I asked you to provide some support for such an argument and you come back with "I suggest you give it a little more thought". You see them on the front lines? How many times has Arafat run away? Where was Saddam during the gulf war? Where was Bin Laden when the bombs fell? Sure as hell not leading the troops! Come on man, that is just stupid. How many generals actually fight a war "on the front line"? There's always going to have to be someone to survey the battlefield and make strategic decisions. I find the idea that terrorism is enacted for economic gain pretty weak. How exactly does Saddam or Arafat gain (economically)from terrorism? (I'm not simply being argumentative here, I really would like to understand.) What's more, as I have already said, the evidence simply suggests that more likely motives for acts of terror (in the Middle East) are political and religious goals. Apart from the above, I generally agree with your assessment of the current state of affairs in the region. My only bone of contention (and what got me involved in this thread) is your assertion that no Arabs were "forced" to leave Israel. Although I regard displacement of a people as a result of war as something akin to being "forced", I guess you do not. Furthermore, any discussion about the rights of Arabs to live in (or return to, as you put it) Israel inevitably gets bogged down in arguments over the moral rectitude of Zionism. From there it's a quick descent into a death spiral of "I am right, you are wrong". I'm going to quote myself (from earlier in this thread): Now, I'm not trying to deny Israel the right to nationhood. I'd prefer to look forward and not try to re-write history. Israel is here and it's here to stay. (Getting bogged down in historical claims to the land helps absolutely nobody. And coming from a nation, Macedonia, where such territorial disputes also plague international relations, I think I know what I'm talking about.) If a solution is to be reached, it will have to be decided on the state of affairs as it exists today - not as it existed 50, 100 or 5000 years ago. This requires political will from both parties. So far, I find the Palestinian side sorely lacking in it.
Turns my stomach but the suicide bombers do get paid. It has been well documented that their own government provides for their family (parents, children, etc.) as well as extra services like special hospitals, etc. Also Saddam Hussein has been paying $25,000 to the family of suicide bombers. Although I've read it in several places and seen it on news/documentary, this is the most recent mention of it: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1259229 "This is by no means a barren hope. Mr Hussein's survival to date owes much to the fact that whereas surviving is the one thing he cares about, removing him is one of many things his enemies care about. And distracting events have a habit of coming along. One is the Palestinian intifada, which has inflamed Muslim passions against Israel's American protector and constrained the superpower's freedom of manoeuvre. At home in America, the travails of big business appear to have shifted the political agenda and could make it hard for Mr Bush to win support for a risky new foreign adventure. Mr Hussein is a master at exploiting such opportunities. As after his invasion of Kuwait in 1990, for example, he is milking his pose as the Palestinians' champion for all its worth. Iraq pays a bounty of $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers and $10,000 to the families of other Palestinian intifada casualties. He has raised a special force, the al-Quds army, to liberate Jerusalem, and says it would march on the holy city at once if only some other Arab country opened its borders to let it through. Such antics play well on the Arab street, where Mr Hussein is admired for his muscular defiance of America and Zionism. Fear of their own public increases the unwillingness of other Arab regimes to co-operate openly in any American attack on him. Even King Abdullah of Jordan, an American protégé, felt the need to say in London and Washington this week that a war on Iraq could plunge the region into chaos. Most of Jordan's people are Palestinian themselves. "