http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/07/31/mideast/index.html It's about time the Civilised World got much tougher with the Evil Doers (Palestinian, Iraqi, Pakistani, Iranian, Syrian & other terrorists)... September 11th was a wake-up call, but the chimes keep ringing... It's time for some major pre-emptive action against all Evil Doers, rather than waiting for the next attack... it's time for the Civilised World to strongly unite and show a firm stand against Evil Doing... It's time to smoke em all out and give em all justice, no further meandering in the periphery... it's time to hit em hard... starting with Iraq... the scum who we are up against have no fear of death, in fact they look forward to it... we should swiftly grant em their wish...
This is really such a sad situation. But I don't think that "preemptive" strikes will do much. At least not as far as the Palestinian situation. The Palestinians want a "right of return" which will never happen. They left Israel. No one threw them out. Now they want to come back and take what they abandoned. Things change in 54 years. The Israelis created a new country and now the Palestinians want to just come in and take back what they are told by their leaders is rightfully theirs. A delusional mentality. What would help is money and education. If the Palestinians could have their own state (which they have been offered and refused), they too could build something worth having, just as the Israelis did. But that isn't what the leaders want. They want to take what has already been created. Certainly they had no real interest in developing what is now Israel prior to it becoming a Jewish state. They just left. They went to bordering Arab states, and were not accepted. They lived as refugees. These other Arab states encouraged them to leave and fight against the Israelis, but never let the Palestinians become part of their world. They actually had their own place (Jordan), but just hung out in their tents while the Israelis built a country. So now they are led by a lying maniac and a bunch of murdering terrorists. But if they had any kind of real leadership and financial support, and education, the Palestinians could join the civilized world. But so far, this is of no interest to them. Hopefully the leaders don't really represent the true feelings of the masses. It is my bet that peace could be bought. Give each family a little land, a little money, and an education, (and let them elect some real leaders), and they might become a real country. Same in Iraq, Iran, and any of the other terrorist states. It isn't the people, it is the leaders. They are not elected. They have no interest in the the well being of their people. They are gangsters pure and simple. We hand out so much money in foreign aid to dictators and governments that never use the money for anything but their own ends. The trick would be to figure out how to get money to these people. And education. This would be a solution, but the reality of instituting it is another thing. The money would probably end up being seized and used to buy weapons. http://jewishinternetassociation.org/historynutshell/conflict.html
While I understand candle's outrage and rs7's position. The fact is both sides have committed so many atrocities against one another that it's no longer an issue of right and wrong - or better said, who's "more right" than the other. There's only two solutions: 1) We play the World's Cop (like we've been doing for years except through economic means) and tell *both* countries, stop fighting now or we nuke both of you to oblivion. or... 2) Both countries realize there's no way they're going to get acceptable retribution for the past, start with a clean slate, and work out a compromise that will be equally unfair to both. Chances are #1's never gonna happen.
thought that was already offered and refused!?! you are certainly right though about #1 never happening. at least I hope so.
What? Come on man! What pure unadulterated bullshit! Astonishing! The Palestinians can hardly be said to have "left Israel", when the state of Israel didn't even exist (as a recognized entity) at the time of the first Arab-Jewish conflicts. These conflicts eventuall lead to the formation of the State of Israel. Did they leave many areas they previously inhabited? Yes. Were they forced to? Absolutely! I'd say you're the one that's being delusional! Now, I'm not trying to deny Israel the right to nationhood. I'd prefer to look forward and not try to re-write history. Israel is here and it's here to stay. (Getting bogged down in historical claims to the land helps absolutely nobody. And coming from a nation, Macedonia, where such territorial disputes also plague international relations, I think I know what I'm talking about.) Although Israel itself is hardly blameless, a peaceful resolution being reached is reliant on a Palestinian willingness to negotiate. Why have they been so reluctant to do so? Part of the problem is that their religion mandates intolerance of a Jewish state in Palestine. The very existance of the State of Israel is an anathema to Islam and the Arab world. Palestinian and Arab terrorist groups - with widespread popular support the people, not just a fanatical fringe - vow to never rest until Israel is wiped out. They don't just wanna part of the pie, they want the whole damn thing! Good luck negotiating with that...
OK....Don't let the facts interfere with your beliefs. In what way were the "palestinians" forced to leave Israel? How come Israel is the only place in the middle east that allows arab women the right to vote? Obviously this is a rediculous argument, because the facts are clear and they don't correlate to your beliefs. So unless you will deal with facts other than your misguided opinions, we are stuck. Try clicking on the link in my post. Maybe you will learn something. I admit that web site oversimplifies the situation, but it does not give any false information. However I am certain that you will dismiss the facts anyway. Your mind seems quite made up. A bad trait for a trader. Very expensive to keep a closed mind. Good Luck, RS PS: If the "palestinians" (arabs) were force to leave, as you say, then how come there is a significant arab population in Israel today? They even hold posts in the government (more than they could do in the majority of the arab countries). Where did they come from? And guess what...they are happy being Israeli citizens. If you don't believe me, I suggest you go there and ask them yourself. No one forces them to stay....they just know where they are better off....as they have been all along.
I agree with both sides a bit, but the reality is that the problems of terrorism are caused by small groups of men who want to act like little children and build bombs, play with guns, camp out in caves, and crap like that. When I was 15, that stuff was cool to me, too, but unlike them, I grew out of it. This is why they don't let kids have guns. (I just wish the definition of "kids" could somehow be broadened to include any drunk redneck, or imbeciles claiming ideaology). The reality of the whole Bush vs. Bin Laden thing is that you have two SPOILED LITTLE RICH KIDS playing wargames against each other. Bush aside, as I don't want to open that can of worms here, Bin Laden has never worked a day in his worthless, insignificant life. His folks forked him over a pile of cash, and in afghanistan, things are pretty darn cheap. He has these little camps where him and his friends dress up like army guys, and shoot guns, and do other "cool" guy stuff like that. If that was all they did, it'd be ok, but as we all know, they think it's fun to convince some of the dumber members to actually carry out the things that they talk about. I mean, do you think Bin Laden would actually perform a terrorist act himself?? NO! No way! He's not in it for love, or Islam, or anything else that even remotely sounds like ideaology. He's got nothing better to do, just like any other unemployed clown. He's in it because he likes to play with guns and jerk off with his smelly cavedwelling friends. ...just calling a spade a spade... PS - If you looked in Bin Laden's closet, know what you'd find (besides porn)? BB guns, james bond video tapes (probably in beta), and an old atari 2600 with one game - spy hunter.
OK....Don't let the facts interfere with your beliefs. Gimme a break. As if I'm gonna turn to the propaganda site of a self-interest group to search for "facts". Is that the most credible source of information you have to back up your claims? In what way were the "palestinians" forced to leave Israel? Well, I can't be bothered arguing over what it means to be "forced". Just ask yourself, aren't refugees a common product of a state of war? How come Israel is the only place in the middle east that allows arab women the right to vote? That has nothing to do with anything. I didn't bring up the question of mistreatment of any particular group. My point is that the affairs regarding the birth of the State of Israel are nowhere near as cut and dried as you make them out to be. (The Jews - all good. The Arabs - all bad.) PS: If the "palestinians" (arabs) were force to leave, as you say, then how come there is a significant arab population in Israel today? I wasn't talking about Israel deliberately seeking to force a mass exodus of Arabs from Palestine. I'm saying that there were certain areas where Arabs were the majority that, for reasons of safeguarding the security of the fledgling nation, Israeli forces "took over" (conquered). Simple as that. Refugees are a natural consequance of such an action. I can't believing I'm "arguing" this - it's not even disputed by Israeli scholars. They even hold posts in the government (more than they could do in the majority of the arab countries). Where did they come from? And guess what...they are happy being Israeli citizens. If you don't believe me, I suggest you go there and ask them yourself. Geez, I guess I hit a soft spot with ya - you sure are on the defensive. The thing is, I'm not disputing any of this. Your point seems to be that the Jews were and are essentially blameless for the state of affairs today. I'm saying that that is simply not true. No one forces them to stay....they just know where they are better off....as they have been all along. "..as they have been all along"? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say there, but if it means that the Arab Palestinians don't deserve or desire the right to self determination, well, that is just complete BS.
How do you know about the "widespread popular support"? This is opinion is based on what? Certainly not the arabs that live in Israel. Do you think the indigent arab refugees are so polical that they live the way they do by choice? They would rather be homeless and poor and uneducated because it is what they believe in? Why are they not given the opportunities to assimilate into the societies of the countries in which they exist as refugees? The only people hated more than jews and christians by the arabs, are other arabs. Does the Iran - Iraq conflict ring any bells? How many of his own citizens did Saddam eliminate? And other than the fanatics who live for conflict (they are in the business of terrorism. Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise. They make money doing it).......what purpose is served for the average "palestinian" in fighting to eliminate Israel? Is there an upside? Why would Arafat not take a peace agreement when it was presented? Only reason is it was bad for business....the business of terrorism and power. Keep the constituents ignorant. Give them an enemy to hate in order to distract them from the misery of their every day lives. Ever hear of Hitler? Worked for him too!
How do you know about the "widespread popular support"? This is opinion is based on what? Certainly not the arabs that live in Israel. I take an interest in the issue, and from the news sources I read, I gather that the anti-Israee movement does enjoy popular support. It's certainly an opinion, but I don't think it's a baseless one. Do you think the indigent arab refugees are so polical that they live the way they do by choice? They would rather be homeless and poor and uneducated because it is what they believe in? Palestinian refugees don't have much a choice in the way the live. That's for sure. Whatever cause they might happen to believe in is inconsequential. (I'm not even sure of what point you are trying to make there..) Why are they not given the opportunities to assimilate into the societies of the countries in which they exist as refugees? The only people hated more than jews and christians by the arabs, are other arabs. Does the Iran - Iraq conflict ring any bells? How many of his own citizens did Saddam eliminate? It would be nice if you could resolve one topic before introducing others...especially when the point of your statements is difficult to comprehend. And other than the fanatics who live for conflict (they are in the business of terrorism. Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise. They make money doing it) You're saying that these acts of terror are committed for financial gain? Hmm, that's quite a claim, and one I haven't heard before. I'd like to hear more on that. .....what purpose is served for the average "palestinian" in fighting to eliminate Israel? Is there an upside? I agree. Attempting or desiring to "eliminate" Israel is pretty futile and unproductive, to say the least. Yet, again, from the information I gather, this is the goal of the terror organizations. Are they using Islam as tool achieve their "business goals" (as you claim)? I guess that possibility exists. Yet, when I look at the insurgence of Islamic fundamentalism over the whole Arab world - in many countries who have no established link to terrorism - I have to doubt it. Now, is there an "upside" to battling for freedom from oppression and the right to self-determination? Well, history has shown - the history of the USA itself - that, yes, there certainly is. Why would Arafat not take a peace agreement when it was presented? Only reason is it was bad for business....the business of terrorism and power. Again, I dispute that. But I'd be interested in hearing in any reasoning behind it - beyond simply your opinion. BTW, nice to see you completely ignored the other points I made in the other post.