Stu wrote: yep, just like this no doubt.... BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY SOCIETY "Due to “Insufficient Provenance," 11,500 items to be returned to Egypt and Iraq The Museum of the Bible’s Chairman of the Board, Steve Green, announced in late March the return of roughly 11,500 objects to Iraq and Egypt, including approximately 5,000 papyri fragments and 6,500 clay artifacts." You didn't give a link, and your post is VERY MISLEADING by listing the Biblical Archaeology Society prominently, as though it was connected to the returned artifacts. I hope it wasn't intentional, on your part. The items returned due to "Insufficient Provenance" HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY SOCIETY. An article was written BY the society announcing the problem with the artifacts in a separate museum, called The Museum of the Bible, based in Washington D.C. The artifacts belonged to one man,Steve Green. If you had continued reading the article, you would have realized that biblical scholars and archaeologists had been critical of his methods for many years. https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...m-of-the-bible-announces-return-of-artifacts/ For years, biblical scholars and archaeologists have scrutinized the perfunctory collecting practices of the Green family, appealing for more provenance research into the museum’s collection. Countless articles and entire volumes, including Jill Hicks-Keeton and Cavan Concannon’s The Museum of the Bible: A Critical Introduction (2019) and Bible Nation: The United States of Hobby Lobby (2017) by Candida Moss and Joel Baden, have probed the museum’s furtive operations. The fact that others had already been concerned about his practices shows that biblical scholars and archaeologists do have integrity in following accepted guidelines. They are also willing to challenge those who do not. The reason I'm clarifying that the museum has no connection with the Biblical Archaeology Society (BAR) is that I did post from the BAR site a while back on this thread, and I plan to post other articles from them in the future.
How is my post not clear that the quote is by the Biblical Archeology Society commenting on the the Museum of the Bible and it's Chairman? The piece is as it exactly appears on the Biblical Archeology Society's website. The prominent heading is theirs not mine. They could have published it as the Biblical Archeology Society instead of BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY SOCIETY. From the article you mention ie: https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48969466.html: I am saying aish's so called factors for evidence in reality are no more reliable than the Biblical Archeology Society showed the Museum of the Bible to be. That is to say, not reliable at all . The Museum of the Bible committed illegalities whilst on the other hand 'aish' claim things that don't even stand first scrutiny. As far as the actual question of validity is concerned, bottom line - it's same difference. What they say are three factors to establish 'conclusive evidence' is laughable. No respectable scholar, historian, or archaeologist would call "evidence conclusive" based on those factors. However, you've repeatedly said the only evidence you need that the Bible is true is the Bible itself. So how come you're so intent on spamming these threads with such a lot of other stuff, in trying so excruciatingly unsuccessfully to find support for the Bible?
Good old Pascal, his wager is total bunk. He forgot to assume, what if I worship the wrong god and piss off the real one? Pekelo's wager: It is better not to worship any god because we can not know if there is one that maybe vengeful and easy to piss off and would screw us up for worshiping someone else. His another not particularly logical assumption is that just because there is a God, there has to be a heaven and a hell. Doesn't logically follow...
Stu said: "What they say are three factors to establish 'conclusive evidence' is laughable. No respectable scholar, historian, or archaeologist would call "evidence conclusive" based on those factors." The article says differently: "When all three factors have been met, according to the interpretation of recognized scholars, historians, and archaeologists, only then is the evidence conclusive." Here is a similar article that lists 53 people in the Bible that have been confirmed archaeologically. This one has more details given. A shortened list is at the top and each name can be clicked on to reveal the archaeological details confirming his or her identity. The details are also listed further down the article after the initial listing. https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/#note13r Mykytiuk writes that these figures “mentioned in the Bible have been identified in the archaeological record. Their names appear in inscriptions written during the period described by the Bible and in most instances during or quite close to the lifetime of the person identified.” The extensive Biblical and archaeological documentation supporting the BAR study is published here in a web-exclusive collection of endnotes detailing the Biblical references and inscriptions referring to each of the figures. However, I know you and most others still won't be convinced, so here is the Wikipedia list of biblical figures identified in extra-biblical sources. This one doesn't list as many, but still gives quite an impressive list of 39 people. According to Wikipedia: These are biblical figures unambiguously identified in contemporary sources according to scholarly consensus. Biblical figures that are identified in artifacts of questionable authenticity, for example the Jehoash Inscription and the bullae of Baruch ben Neriah, or who are mentioned in ancient but non-contemporary documents, such as David and Balaam,[n 1] are excluded from this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources
In a post I wrote on September 11, 2020 I quoted from Irenaeus, one of the earliest church fathers, to show what was understood by him and presumably, the church in his time, regarding "free will." While teaching on free will, he used verses in the Bible and explained them in a way that could appear to be teaching a "works" salvation. A simple explanation of "works salvation" (which is not what the Bible teaches) would be to say that if you do good things you'll go to heaven and if you do bad things you won't. Careful study of the Scriptures and what Irenaeus taught reveals that it's not a works salvation that he believed the scriptures were teaching, but rather salvation comes through belief, faith, trust, in Christ as a substitute in our place and as His rightful position over us. Hundreds of years later reformers used the phrases "Faith Alone" and "Christ Alone" to make clear what Scripture teaches when it says: "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Romans 3:22 Here are 2 more verses, from Romans 3:20-22a, that also make the issue clearer: 1. "Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." This one makes it clear that if we try to keep the law, or in other words, do good always (the law is summed up in loving God with all our hearts and loving others), we find that we fall short of keeping the law, and the law teaches us that we are sinners. We can't do good always. 2. "But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe." This verse shows that the one who believes is righteous, not based on what they do or don't do, but by being given the righteousness of Christ. Now consider just the last part of the quote I had posted from Irenaeus, because I think it will pull the concept together a little better than what I wrote: "the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that doeth good."598 God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do." Those who do NOT believe, do not have Christ's righteousness given to them, therefore, they will be judged according to their works. Those who DO believe, have Christ's righteousness given to them, and will receive no punishment but will be rewarded for the good that they have done. "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1 Hopefully I made this clear. There are more scriptures that shed light on it, but I won't go that deep into studying it for this post. Here is another quote from Irenaeus, making it clear that it is believing in Jesus that saves: And from them that believe on Him the judgment is taken away, and they are no longer under it. That quote is found at the end of a larger writing in which Irenaeus presents the gospel, the way to be saved. I think it might be surprising to some to find that it not only matches perfectly with the biblical verses on salvation through faith in Christ alone, but resembles what the reformers preached as well. Even Billy Graham spoke similarly, in his younger years, before he stopped mentioning judgement as much, so as not to offend hearers. It's the same message, handed down through the ages, that is based on what Scripture teaches. Irenaeus (born c. 120/140, died c. 200/203) wrote: 68. And that He shall be despised and tormented and in the end put to death, Isaiah says thus: Behold, my son shall understand,187 and shall be exalted and glorified greatly. Even as many shall be astonished at thee, so without glory shall thy form be from men. And many races shall be astonished, and kings shall shut their mouths: for they to whom it was not declared concerning him shall see, and they who have not heard shall consider. Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? We declared before him as a child, as a root in a dry ground: and there is to him no form nor glory: and we saw him, and he had no form nor beauty: and his form was without honour, meaner than that of other men: a man in chastisement, and acquainted with the bearing of pain; for his face was turned away, he was dishonoured and made of no account. He beareth our sins, and for our sakes endureth pain: and we accounted him to be in pain and chastisement and affliction. But he was wounded for our iniquities, and was tormented for our sins. The discipline of our peace (was) upon him; by his stripes we were healed. 188 By these words it is declared that He was tormented; as also David says: And I was tormented.189 Now |130 David was never tormented, but Christ (was), when the command was given that He should be crucified. And again by Isaiah His Word says: I gave my back to scourging, and my cheeks to smiting: and my face I turned not away from the shame of spitting.190 And Jeremiah the prophet says the same, thus: He shall give his cheek to the smiter: he shall be filled with reproaches.191 All these things Christ suffered. 69. Now what follows in Isaiah is this: By his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep went astray: a man in his way went astray: and the Lord delivered him up to our sins. 192 It is manifest therefore that by the will of the Father these things occurred to Him for the sake of our salvation. Then he says: And he by reason of his suffering opened not (his) mouth: as a sheep to the slaughter was he brought, as a lamb 193 dumb before the shearer. 194 Behold how he declares His voluntary coming to death. And when the prophet says: In the humiliation his judgment was taken away, he signifies the appearance of His humiliation: according to the form of the abasement was the taking away of judgment. And the taking away of judgment is for some unto salvation, and to some unto the torments of perdition. For there is a taking away for a person, and also from a person. |131 So also with the judgment----those for whom it is taken away have it unto the torments of their perdition: but those from whom it is taken away are saved by it. Now those took away to themselves the judgment who crucified Him, and when they had done this to Him believed not on Him: for through that judgment which was taken away by them they shall be destroyed with torments. And from them that believe on Him the judgment is taken away, and they are no longer under it. And the judgment is that which by fire will be the destruction of the unbelievers at the end of the world. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/fathers/irenaeus_02_proof.html Spacing and boldness added by me for clarity.
Basic common sense says: the article is wrong. Bible says you have original sin. Bible says all have sinned. Bible says sin can be scapegoated by throwing it onto someone else. Bible says to do that it is compulsory that first you must love them, so a further loss of free will. Bible says things that are ethically and morally perverted.
Stu said: Bible says you have original sin. Bible says all have sinned. Bible says sin can be scapegoated by throwing it onto someone else. Bible says to do that it is compulsory that first you must love them, so a further loss of free will. The Bible says: "We love Him because He first loved us." "But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Stu said: Bible says things that are ethically and morally perverted. The Bible says: "But to the wicked God says,'......you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you...These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself...'" "The commands to fear the LORD are right and endure forever. The judgments given by the LORD are trustworthy and absolutely just." 1 Jn 4:19 NKJV Rom 5:8 BSB Psalm 50:16a, 17, 21 ESV Ps 19:9 NET
Before selling the solution the problem needs to be created. The Bible says: "He" gave you sin. "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. " "There is no one righteous, not even one;" Do you believe you were born with sin or not? Yes. Imaginary friends are imaginary.
Stu wrote: The Bible says: "He" gave you sin. "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. " "There is no one righteous, not even one;" Do you believe you were born with sin or not?First, I want to respond to this: "The Bible says: "He" gave you sin." No, the Bible never says that God gave us sin. The Bible says God gave Adam and Eve a choice. They chose to sin. Their sin affects their descendants. God created Adam and Eve and pronounced His creation “very good.” Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, having been warned of the consequences. By eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they “knew” good and evil, experientially.. They died a spiritual death and began the slow process of physical decay which eventually led to their physical death. We inherit our sinful nature. Jesus is the only one who has never sinned. A good article can be found here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_792.cfm “The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35 NASB "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:22 Jesus, even though He was God, and has always existed, became one of us. He became human, while still being fully God. He is the pure, spotless “Lamb of God,” who alone can take away sins. https://www.billygraham.ca/answer/did-jesus-ever-commit-sin/: There is only one thing that God cannot do, and that is commit sin — and because Jesus was God, He could not sin. He could be tempted — but He could not sin. Even His enemies admitted they could find no fault in Him (see John 8:46). Why is this important? It’s important for one reason: Only someone who was without sin could save us from our sins. And that is what happened when Jesus died on the cross: All our sins were transferred to Him, and He took upon Himself the judgment we deserve. Don’t carry your burden of sin and guilt any longer, but open your heart to Jesus Christ and trust Him alone for your salvation. Stu wrote: "Do you believe you were born with sin or not?" Because of Adam (and Eve), we die. Adam passed on his sinful nature to his descendants. ...Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned… Romans 5:12 The sin nature is referred to as the “old self” in Romans 6:6, “We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Jesus came to deliver from sin. He delivers his own from the penalty of sin. He promises them deliverance from the presence of sin in heaven. Rev 21:27 To directly answer your question, "Do you believe you were born with sin or not?: I was born with a sinful nature passed down to me from my ancestor, Adam. I began choosing to sin at some point in my lifetime. God created me with a will, and my choices to sin are uncoerced by God, they come directly from my own desires. However, God directs the command to be reconciled to God (repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) to our wills: The Bible says: “Whosoever will come after Me...” Mark 8:34 “Whosoever will, let him…” Rev 22:17 “Whosoever shall call…” Rom 10:13 “Whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus)...” John 3:16 These verses show that the one who wills, or “wants” to come, believe, call upon and follow Jesus, may. The result will be salvation and everlasting life. People choose to respond to God by either “suppressing the truth” in unbelief or by turning to Him in their hearts, calling out to Him in the way He provided for us…..taking hold of what Jesus did for us on the cross and His resurrection, and asking Him that what He did for them on the cross would be applied to them. They come to God through the Son of God. “Therefore He [Jesus] is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” Hebrews 7:25 There is also a warning given: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts...” This verse shows that people have the ability to harden their own hearts. Hebrews 3:7b, 8a I wrote about Judas once before. Just as a reminder, we see what we want to see and in the case of Judas, he was with Jesus His entire ministry. Judas saw all the miracles. He also observed the consistency between what Jesus taught and how He lived out what He taught. He even experienced God working through him--he worked miracles through God’s power. In his heart he chose to ignore all the evidence and focus on what he could get out of it for himself. This serves as a warning to us that God can give us all kinds of evidence, but if we choose not to see it, we begin to harden our hearts and just as Judas rejected Jesus, we can choose to do the same, with dire consequences.