Replying to Stu: The earliest church fathers believed in free will while not denying the consequences of original sin. Irenaeus taught a lot on free will. Augustine began the view that the current Calvinistic movement holds to, denying free will. Like I said in the last post, we don't have to understand something for it to be true. We can know God, in what He has revealed about Himself to us. We are finite creatures, existing within the limits of time. God is omnipresent, meaning always existing in the present. "Before Abraham was, I AM"...Jesus is saying there that before Abraham was, He Himself was in the present. We cannot understand existing outside of time, or the creation of time. How can we place limits on God's ability to create humans to think and choose freely? The Bible over and over again uses words that reveal a choice humans must make, to obey God or reject God. You can see that when God spoke to Cain, "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but YOU must rule over it." Gen 4:7 NIV I have actually gone back and forth between free will vs varying degrees of the Calvinistic view. These are issues that can and should be discussed and debated, in my opinion--if it is done respectfully. But ultimately, the only belief that affects your eternity is whether or not you have saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
You say that the Bible needs no evidence, yet at the same time you also recommend its serious study and you post this in a thread concerned (from its very title) with the supportive evidence within the Bible itself. Either you believe what's in the Bible, which makes you a Christian, or you don't have the faith to believe it no matter what it contains, which makes you an atheist. You can't be a Christian who only holds such a religious belief based on scientific study.
I completely agree with you on this. However, there are many evidences which support the reliability of the Bible. I use the word "support" because often they cannot be "proven." It is difficult to prove anything thousands of years after it happened. However, something does not need to be "proven" in order for there to be sufficient evidence to form an opinion or a belief. When such evidences are combined with the internal evidences of Scripture, especially the fulfilled prophecies of Jesus, they form a strong foundation for faith. In this thread I plan to provide links to sites that discuss such evidences so that anyone who wants to, can study these things further.
Good article on evidences that support Biblical characters from a Jewish (non-Christian) site: Biblical Archaelogy: Bringing the Bible to Life https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48969466.html: "It was not that long ago that there was no independent outside verification for hardly any of the Biblical characters. Nowadays, almost on a yearly basis, some independent source confirms the existence of one of the Biblical characters. Below is an impressive list of 61 Biblical persons, some are kings, some are prophets, some are heroes while others are enemies. They are central characters as well as minor players whose reality can be verified by archaeological and historical evidence. ------- The List (*minor Biblical character) Ahab (I Kings 16-22; II Kings 1,3-10; II Chronicles 19.21.22, etc) infamous king of Israel. Mentioned in the Assyrian Annalistic Reports, 2,000 chariots, 10,000 soldiers of Ahab the Israelite, defeated by Shalmaneser1, alluded to on the Mesha Stele. 2 Ahaz (II Kings 15-18,20,23; Isaiah 1,7,14,38; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; I Chronicles 3,8, etc.) King of Judah Mentioned in the cuneiform Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. 3 Several seals and bullae bearing the name of the king Ahaz. 4 Ahikam son of Shaphan (II Kings 22,25; Jeremiah 26,29,36, 39-41,43; II Chronicles 34) contemporary of Jeremiah Bullae bearing the name Ahikam son of Shaphan. 5 Ashurbanipal/Asnappar (Ezra 4) king of Assyria. 4:10. Asnappar Identified in Mentioned in numerous contemporary inscriptions. 6 *Azaliah son of Meshullam (II Kings 22; II Chronicles 34) "And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the Lord, saying..." (II Kings 22:3) Bullae bearing the name of Azaliah son of Meshullum found in Jerusalem. 7 Azariah/Uzziah (II Kings 14,15) king of Judah. Aramaic inscription on a stone plaque, found on the Mt. of Olives in Jerusalem, reads "Here were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah." 8 Possibly the King Azariau of Yaudi mentioned in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. 9 Azariah son of Hilkiah (Ezra 7; I Chronicles 5) grandfather of Ezra, high priest. A bulla found in Jerusalem bears the name Azariah son of Hilkiah. 10 *Baalis (Jeremiah 40) king of Ammon. Attested to by two seals found in Jordan, the Milqom Seal and the Baalisha Seal which reads Baalisha (Baalis) king of the sons of Ammon. 11 *Baruch ben Neriah (Jeremiah 32,36,43,45) a scribe, a disciple of the prophet Jeremiah. Several bullae bearing the name Baruch ben Neriah have been found in the archaeological City of David. One bulla bears the inscription "Baruch ben Neriah the Scribe." The stratum in which the seals were found is contemporaneous with Jeremiah. 12 Belshazzar (Daniel 5,7,8) king of Babylon. Mentioned in numerous contemporary inscriptions. 13 Ben-hadad Dynasty (I Kings 15, 20; II Kings 6,8,13; Jeremiah 49, etc.) king of Aram Melqart Stele mentions king of Aram, Bir-hadad. Bir corressopnds to the Hebrew Ben. Zakkur Stele attests to an Aramean royal name of Ben-hadad. 14 Ben-hadad III (II Kings 13) king of Aram, son of Hazael. Ben-hadad son of Hazael mentioned in Zakkur Stele. 15 David (Davidic Dynasty) (Mentioned more than 1,000 times in the books of the Prophets.) Several references in extra-Biblical sources to the Davidic dynasty have been found in recent years. 16 *Elishama (Jeremiah 36,41) scribe and servant to king Jehoiakim. A bulla dating from that time period bears the stamp, "Elishama, servant of the king." 17 Esarhaddon (II Kings 19, Isaiah 37, Ezra 4) Assyrian king , son of Nebucadnezer. Attested to in many cuneiform chronicles. Bronze plaque in Louvre depicts Esarhaddon and his mother Nagia. 18 *Ethbaal (I Kings 16) king of Sidon. Attested by Menander of Ephesus, summarized in Josephus' Contra Apion. 19 Gedalyahu ben Pashur (Jeremiah 38:1) antagonist of Jeremiah Attested by bulla found in Jerusalem by Prof. E. Mazar. 20 *Gemariahu the son of Shaphan (Jeremiah 29,36) servant of king Jehoiakim. Bulla found with the name Gemariahu the son of Shaphan. 21 Hazael (I Kings 19; II Kings 8,9,10,12,13) king of Aram, enemy of Israel. Attested by ivory fragments found in Arslan Tash22 and Nimrud. Mentioned several times in Zakkur Stele. 23 Hezekiah (II Kings 16,18-21; Isaiah 1,36-39; Jeremiah 15,26; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; etc) Renown king of Judah. Hezekiah was unsuccessfully besieged in Jerusalem by Sennecherib. Mentioned several times in Annals of Sennacherib. The Annals refer to the siege of Jerusalem. 24 A number of seals and bullae bear the king's name. 25 Hezion (II Kings 15) king of Aram. Attested to in the Melqart Stele. 26 *Hilkiah (II Kings 22,23; Jeremiah 1,29; Ezra 7; Nechemiah 11,12; II Chronicles 34,35) a high priest, contemporary of Jeremiah. A signet ring bears the name of Hilkiah the priest. Dated to the era of Jeremiah. 27 Hiram (II Samuel 5; I Kings 5,7.9.10) king of Tyre, contemporary of Solomon. Attested by Menander of Ephesus, summarized in Josephus' Contra Apion. 28 *Hopra (Jeremiah 44) king of Egypt. Identified with ‘Apries, pharaoh of 26th Dynasty. 29 Hoshea (II Kings 15,17,18) last king of Israel. Attested to twice in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. "They overthrew their king Pekah and I (Tiglath-pileser) placed Hoshea as king over them." 30 Name found on a seal that reads, "Abdi, servant of Hoshea." 31 Jehoash (II Kings 12-14) Israelite king. Mentioned in the Annals of Adad-nirari of Assyria and on the Tel Rimah Stele. 32 *Jehoiachin (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 52; II Chronicles 36). One of the last kings of Judah. Mentioned in the Ration Tables of Babylon. 33 Jehoram II (I Kings 22, II Kings 1,3,6,9,12; II Chronicles 17,21,22) king of Israel, son of Ahab. Alluded to on Tel Dan Stele. 34 Jotham (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 1,7; Hoshea 1; Micha 1; II Chronicles 26,27) King of Judah. This king is attested to by a seal recently uncovered that reads, "Belonging to Ahaz (son of) Jotham, King of Judah." 35 Jehu (I Kings 16,19; II Kings 9,10,12,13-15; Hoshea 1, I Chronicles 2,4, 12, etc) Mentioned and depicted on the Black Obelisk. 36 *Jehucal the son of Shelemiah (Jeremiah 37) official in the court of Zedekiah. A bulla bearing the name "Jehucal the son of Shelemiah" was discovered in the archaeological city of David in Jerusalem together with other bullae dating to the period of Zedekiah. 37 *Jerahme'el, son of king Jehoiakim (Jeremiah 36) Bulla found with the imprint, "Jerahme'el, the king's son." 38 Jeroboam II (II Kings 9,10,13-15,17,23; Hoshea 1; Amos 7; II Chronicles 9-13) King of Israel. Seal of Jasper found at Megiddo depicting a roaring lion and bears the inscription "to Shema, servant of Jeroboam." 39 Jezebel (I Kings 16,18,21; II Kings 9) daughter of Ethbaal king of Sidon (Phoenicia), wife of king Ahab of Israel. Name found on Phoenician royal seal dated to the era of Ahab. 40 Menachem (II Kings 15) Israelite king. Mentioned twice in the annals of Tiglath-pileser III as Menachem of Samariah (the capital of Israel). 41 Manasseh (II Kings 20,21,23,24; Jeremiah 9,15; II Chronicles 33,34) infamous king of Judah, son of Hezekiah. Attested to in the annals of Esarhaddon and the annals of Assurbanipal. 42 Name very possibly appears on a royal seal, which reads Manasseh son of the king (referring to Hezekiah). 43 Merodach-baladan II (II Kings 20; Isaiah 39) king of Babylonia, on friendly terms with Hezekiah king of Judah. Mentioned in the cuneiform texts of Tiglath-pileser III, Sargon II, and Sennacherib. 44 *Mesha (II Kings 3) king of Moab contemporary with Omri dynasty of Israel, waged war with Israel. Attested to in Mesha Stele, Mesha waged war with an Omri dynasty king. 45 Nebuchadnezzar II (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 27,282934,39; Daniel 1.2.3,4,5, etc) king of Babylon, captures Judah and exiles the Israelites. Well attested to. 46 *Sarsekim (Jeremiah 39:3) official of Nebuchadnezzar II, name recently deciphered on cuneiform tablet by Michael Jursa of the University of Vienna. 47 Necho II (II Kings 23; Jeremiah 46, II Chronicles 35,36) Egyptian pharaoh during the final years of the Davidic monarchy in Judah. Well known pharaoh of the 26th Dynasty. Omri (I Kings 16, II Kings 8, Micha 6, I Chronicles 7,9, 27; II Chronicles 22)King of Israel, founder of Omride Dynasty Name mentioned on Mesha Stele, dynasty (House of Omri) referred to in several Assyrian cuneiform texts. 48 Pekah (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 7; II Chronicles 28) next to the last king of Israel. Attested twice in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. "They overthrew their king Pekah and I (Tiglath-pileser) placed Hoshea as king over them." 49 Rezin (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 7,8,9, Ezra 2; Nechemia 7) Last Aramean king of Damascus, fought with Pekah king of Israel. Attested in the Annals of Tiglath-pileser III. 50 *Samgarnebo (Jeremiah 39) high official serving in the court of Nebucadnezzar. A cuneiform tablet discovered in 1920 near Bagdad states that Samgarnebo was a chief official in the court of Nebucadnezzar. 51 Sargon II (Isaiah 20) king of Assyria. Attested to in countless cuneiform chronicles. 52 Sennacherib (II Kings 18,19; Isaiah 35,37; II Chronicles 32) king of Assyria, invades Israel captures Lachish, besieges Jerusalem. Sennacherib's own chronicles and palace engravings attest to the invasion of Israel, the capture of Lachish and the siege of Jerusalem. 53 *Seraiah the son of Neriah, (Jeremiah 51) brother of Baruch ben Neriah. Bulla bearing the name Seraiah ben Neriah found. 54 Shallum (II Kings 15) King of Israel. Very possibly this king is the "Shallum" whose name is found on a cylindrical seal. 55 Shalmaneser V (II Kings 17,18) conquers Israel, exiles ten tribes. Attested to in the Babylonian Chronicles and in the Babylonian King List. 56 *Shaphan (II Kings 22,25; Jeremiah 26,29, 36,40,41,43; II Chronicles 34) contemporary of Jeremiah. Name found on a number of bullae dated to the period of Jeremiah. 57 *Shebna (II Kings 18,19; Isaiah 22,36,37) Servant (minister) of king Azariah. Called the "one over the house," referring to his position as the one in charge of the affairs of the house of the king. Engraving above a burial cave bears his name and the phrase, "The one over the house." 58 A seal also bears the engraving, "Shebna, servant of the king." Shishak (I Kings 11,14; II Chronicles 12) king of Egypt, invaded Canaan during reign of Rehoboam king of Judah. Invasion of Canaan by Egyptian king Shishak (Shoshenq I) attested to in Megiddo Stele. 59 So (II Kings 17) king of Egypt, contemporary with Shalmaneser V of Babylon and Hoshea, last king of Israel. Most probably to be identified with Osorkon, king of Egypt, contemporaneously with Shalmaneser V of Babylon. 60 *Sanballat the Horonite (Nechemia 2-4,6,13) governor in Judah, contemporary of Nechemia. Sanballat the Horonite is mentioned several times in the Elephantine Papyrus which chronicles the time period of Nechemia. 61 Tabrimon (II Kings 15) king of Aram Mentioned in the Melqart Stele. 62 Tiglath-pileser III, also called Pul (II Kings 15,16; Isaiah 66; I Chronicles 5) Attested to in countless cuneiform chronicles. 63 *Tirhakah (II Kings 19; Isaiah 37) Egyptian king, contemporary of Hezekiah king of Judah. Well known 25th Dynasty Egyptian pharaoh. *Tobiah the Ammonite (Nehemiah 2-4,6,7,13) antagonist of Ezra and Nehemiah. Tobiah the Ammonite is mentioned several times in the Elephantine Papyrus which chronicles the time period of Ezra and Nechemia. Stanley A. Cook, The Significance of the Elephantine Papyri for the History of Hebrew Religion The American Journal of Theology, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Jul., 1915), pp. 346-38264 Zedekiah (II Kings 24,25; Jeremiah 1,21,24,27-29, 32,34,36-39,44.49.51.52 Nechemiah 10, I Chronicles 3, II Chronicles 36) last king of Judah, installed by Nebucadnesser. Referred to in the Babylonian Chronicles of Nebucadnesser, and mentions that Nebucadnesser installed the Judean king. 65 Zedekiah the son of Hananiah (Jeremiah 36) official in the court of king Jehoiakim of Judah. Bulla found in archaeological city of David bearing the name Zedekiah the son of Hananiah. The strata was contemporary with Jehoiakim. 66"
yep, just like this no doubt.... BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY SOCIETY "Due to “Insufficient Provenance," 11,500 items to be returned to Egypt and Iraq The Museum of the Bible’s Chairman of the Board, Steve Green, announced in late March the return of roughly 11,500 objects to Iraq and Egypt, including approximately 5,000 papyri fragments and 6,500 clay artifacts."
Sure, which means they were knowingly lying, or self-serving hypocrites, or they were trying to make up religious doctrine from both sides of their mouths using self-contradicting messages. Or all of the above. Two Church fathers both of immense influence, both speaking with "the spirit of God" saying the opposite to each other. Par for the course. Yea I know, but it didn't make any sense then and it doesn't now. It would mean 'we' neither have to understand there is no free will... for it to be true. Or there is no God... for it to be true. Or the Bible makes no sense... for it to be true. It's impossible to argue logically or evidentially that an 'omni-everything supreme being' exists, let alone endowed free will, when it also supposedly imposed sin and allows evil. Only blind, credulous religious faith serves to believe otherwise.
You and I are both talking about the evidence contained within the Bible itself. Naturally, the book corroborates what it itself has to say more often than it undermines it. But in any serious field of objective study, data and evidence are not drawn from simply one source and accepted for what it is. Nor is the source made any more creditworthy by the number of people who believe it and paraphrase it. It is anomalous that some Christians maintain that repetition of the same material from the same source somehow builds a strong case for their beliefs. Repetition is just repetition. As for the Bible's contributors, many of them have been forced to report hearsay as they were not first-hand witnesses, and the credentials and reliability and motivations of many of them are unproven and may be unverifiable.
The article was not put out by the Bible Archaeology Society. Here are some quotes from the article showing the standards they used to place a Biblical character on the list: https://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48969466.html: "They are central characters as well as minor players whose reality can be verified by archaeological and historical evidence." "When outside confirmation of the minor characters surfaces, it lends great strength to those who firmly believe in the veracity and accuracy of the Biblical narrative." "Acceptable evidence is based on three factors: The name of the individual has been found in some extra-Biblical record or on some piece of archaeological evidence, such as a bulla or seal. The name must in some way be connected to the person named in the Biblical story. For example, the name Ahab being found on a seal would mean very little. However, if the seal read Ahab, King of Israel, that would mean a great deal. The chronological context of the name found must match the chronology of the Biblical story. If the above "Ahab, King of Israel" seal was found in an archaeological stratum dating to the 12th century BCE, that would create a major problem. The Biblical Ahab lived many centuries later." "When all three factors have been met, according to the interpretation of recognized scholars, historians, and archaeologists, only then is the evidence conclusive."
Stu wrote: Sure, which means they were knowingly lying, or self-serving hypocrites, or they were trying to make up religious doctrine from both sides of their mouths using self-contradicting messages. Or all of the above. That's not the case at all. Two Church fathers both of immense influence, both speaking with "the spirit of God" saying the opposite to each other. Par for the course. I highly doubt there are any 2 believers that will agree completely with each other on everything. A born again believer is indwelt by God's Spirit, and His Spirit does lead us into truth. However, believers are still sinners and we do not, of ourselves, know God's truth. We "grow" in our understanding through careful Bible reading and study. Most of the early church fathers had differing views in some areas, some minor, some major. If you read through the letters to the churches in the New Testament you will see that even during the apostles' time heresies had already begun infiltrating churches. That is why anything a church "father" or leader says needs to be evaluated by Scripture. My faith is based on the Bible and not church tradition and not church leaders. I believe that some church leaders are invaluable for their insights into Scripture but none should be trusted in the way the Bible alone is trustworthy. I have looked at a comparison between Irenaeus' writings and the "Apostles' Creed" and every main point of the creed is backed by his writings, except "He descended into hell"-which is interpreted by many protestants to mean immediately after His death, Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom to release the believing old testament saints. Jesus' substitutionary work on our behalf was completed when He said, "It is finished," while on the cross. I copied the comparison and put the Apostle's Creed in black lettering and Irenaeus' words from Ad Haer Book I.10.1 in blue and Ad Haer Book III.4.2 in red. https://deadheroesdontsave.com/2011/06/13/what-is-orthodoxy-part-2/: We will start with the Apostle’s Creed and compare that to the essentials that are described by Irenaeus. Irenaeus is a bishop who has probable ties to the Apostle John (through Polycarp and Ignatius). He lived in the second century and among his extant writings is a series of books called “Against Heresies” often abbreviated Ad Haer. In these books he describes and refutes the heretical teachings of Gnostics like Valentinius. Another important document is his treatise “Proof of the Apostolic Teaching”, which was written “to show forth in brief the preaching of the truth for the confirmation of your faith” and be “a manual of essentials”. This document elaborates on the “rule of faith”. "Apostle’s Creed Ad Haer Book I.10.1 Ad Haer Book III.4.2 I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord one Christ Jesus, the Son of God Christ Jesus, the Son of God Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary who became incarnate for our salvation […] the birth from a virgin because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried the passion, having suffered under Pontius Pilate He descended into hell ________________ The third day he rose again from the dead and the resurrection from the dead […] in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord and rising again He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord and having been received up in splendour From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. I believe in the Holy Ghost and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations […] I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith The forgiveness of sins He Himself uniting man through Himself to God The resurrection of the body And the life everlasting. to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race […] in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love Amen." My point in posting the above comparison is to show that even though there may be differing views between Irenaeus and Augustine in some areas, I believe they both would have affirmed this statement. The Apostles' Creed was written in 150 A.D., during Irenaeus' life time. https://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-creed.html https://www.gotquestions.org/Irenaeus-of-Lyons.html A quote from Irenaeus on free will: This expression [of our Lord], "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,"597 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, "But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God." "But glory and honour," he says, "to every one that doeth good."598 God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do. http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freewill.html