Evidences that support the reliability of the Bible

Thanks for posting something that wasn't blasphemous or disrepectful, for once. That was a good video, because it was actually thought provoking. Of course, I disagree with his viewpoint, and he is coming to his conclusions from a naturalistic perspective, but he did say not to rule God out.

Here's something that's always puzzled me...is it a proof that the earth could not have been around for billions of years? I don't know enough about science to know for sure, but the creationists seem to make a logical point: the ocean is increasing in saltiness. Salt does not easily leave the ocean waters, but more salt is added to the water through rivers. Simple concept, and I can't see why it wouldn't be an effective argument for a very young earth.

However, there is a rebuttal to the argument, so I am posting a link to that. Even after reading the rebuttal, I'm still persuaded to think it's a valid argument that creation must have happened relatively recently.

https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/9-very-little-salt-in-the-sea/
https://www.icr.org/article/oceans-salt-clock-shows-young-world

rebuttal: http://apps.usd.edu/esci/creation/age/content/failed_scientific_clocks/ocean_salinity.html

 

Indeed, representing what is real and not illusory.

He didn't say that. He said it doesn't mean you can't believe in God or Gods. That's an altogether different thing.

I think you'll agree his main point is, (to paraphrase), it's not his opinion the universe is 13.8 billion years old.
It is 13.8 billion years old because it has been measured to be 13.8 billion years old. It's like you can't have an opinion on the distance from LA to New York. It's been measured, we know what it is.

Measuring something scientifically means repeatedly bringing every and any type of appropriate reliable test and measurement available to disprove that which is being measured.

That process is what showed the salt clock to not be a valid or reliable measurement as explained in the usd.edu article you linked. That process also confirms the distance from LA to New York is not 5 miles and the universe is 13.8 billion years old.

For someone to say they have an opinion or belief that the distance from LA to New York is 5 miles, would just simply be wrong to the point of silly. Likewise an opinion or belief that the earth is a few thousand years old, is as wrong and as silly.

Young Earth Creationists (and I'd suggest, Short Distance Believers) should, as Professor Brian Cox says in the vid, "just stop it".

 

Stu wrote: He didn't say that. He said it doesn't mean you can't believe in God or Gods. That's an altogether different thing.

Well, if you listen very carefully, he actually does say that believing in God can't be ruled out, and he contrasted that with those who believe in flat earth.

5:13 People say, “the earth’s flat”, or whatever.. it isn’t, and we’ve measured it, so just stop it.​

But that doesn’t mean you can’t be spiritual and you can’t be religious. I would say and it doesn’t mean you can’t believe in God or gods...that’s not ruled out.​

See, he doesn't say..."just stop it," as he does to flat-earthers,....he says a belief in God is "not ruled out."



Stu wrote: I think you'll agree his main point is, (to paraphrase), it's not his opinion the universe is 13.8 billion years old.
It is 13.8 billion years old because it has been measured to be 13.8 billion years old. It's like you can't have an opinion on the distance from LA to New York. It's been measured, we know what it is.

Yes, I do agree with you that he was making a point that it's not his opinion, but that it's been measured to be 13.8 billion years old. But you have to remember, his belief system does not allow for God to have done what God said He did....create the universe in working condition.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Creationist say, "the chicken," of course. However, it would be wrong to say, 1 day after the first chicken was created, that it MUST HAVE ALREADY LIVED FOR A YEAR BECAUSE IT WAS A FULLY FORMED CHICKEN. It was created an adult and didn't have to go through the growing process to get there. In the same way, the stars were created with their light already reaching the earth, so we can't use the number of light years to measure how old the earth is. Remember, it's because God has told us that He created all things, that we Christians believe Him and understand it to be so. There are many aspects of science that are consistent with that belief.

Stu wrote: That process is what showed the salt clock to not be a valid or reliable measurement as explained in the usd.edu article you linked.


I didn't think the arguments made against the salt clock seemed very reliable.

Evolutionists can't accept that the salt levels in the ocean are increasing, because it disproves their theory requiring billions of years for evolution to occur, so they have to try to make is seem like it doesn't.

Have you ever boiled a pot of water dry? It always leaves a slight residue. The water will evaporate out and leave the minerals behind. I don't see why that wouldn't happen with ocean water, and I don't need to be a scientist to figure that one out.

https://www.icr.org/article/evidence-for-young-earth-from-ocean-atmosphere

Salt in the Ocean​

Temperature changes are not the only window on the history of the ocean. Another piece of evidence arguing for a young ocean relates to the amount of salt it contains and the rate at which it was added. Austin and Humphreys (1990) conducted an inventory of the amount of Na + in the ocean (the positive ion from salt) and found that by making assumptions most favorable to an old-age, evolutionary model, such as no initial Na + , minimum input rates, and maximum output rates, the oldest ocean calculated was 62 million years. This is almost 75 times less than the 4.5 billion years for the conventional estimated age of the earth. The calculated age can easily be accomodated into a young, creationist model when non-zero initial concentrations of Na + and the likely affects of the Genesis Flood are considered.​

Na + is the most common dissolved metal in the ocean. The worldwide delivery of Na + to the ocean by rivers has been recognized by scientists for hundreds of years (Halley, 1715). Until the early 1900's salt in seawater was thought to be a legitimate method for estimating the age of the earth. However, with the discovery of radioisotope dating which gives age estimates of 4.5 billion years, the concentration of Na + was believed to give an estimate of residence time rather than the age of the earth. Residence time is the average length of time the sodium ion would survive in the ocean before being removed. This steady state model of salt in the ocean says that Na + is removed from the ocean about as fast as it enters, causing the amount of Na + in the ocean to remain roughly constant with time (Rubey, 1951).​

Austin and Humphreys (1990) compared the magnitude of the input and output rates of Na + to determine if the model is close to being in steady state. They computed the minimum input from eleven sources of Na + to the ocean including rivers, sediments, atmospheric and volcanic dust, glaciers, ground water, and hydrothermal vents and seven sinks of Na + from the ocean including sea spray, cation exchange, pore water, halite deposition, basalt alteration, and albite and zeolite formation. They found a minimum input rate today of 457 billion Kg/year and a maximum output rate of 122 billion Kg/year. Only 27% of the Na + going into today's ocean can be accounted for by known output processes. A separate study by Drever, et al. (1988) showed that the negative ion Cl - is also being added to the ocean at a much faster rate than it is being removed. Therefore, the ocean is not presently in a steady state condition and the age of the earth must be less than 62 million years.​

A maximum age of 62 million years still seems like an extremely long period of time compared to a Biblical age of thousands of years. But, remember, the study by Austin and Humphreys (1990) went overboard to give the evolutionary time scale the benefit of the doubt. The estimated age still falls far short of the assumed conventional age of the earth. However, if one were to factor in Biblical arguments, this number would be reduced significantly, likely down to only thousands of years.​

For example, there is no reason to assume the ocean didn’t already have dissolved salts when it was formed. Many of the fish and other creatures which live in the ocean today require salt water to survive. They would likely have been able to adapt to a more salty environment but probably not to the level of concentration observed today if it was originally fresh water. So, a major reduction in the estimated age of the ocean could be due to the ocean’s initial condition already containing large concentrations of Na + . There may be methods for estimating the initial concentration of salt in sea water by analyzing fossil fish or other organizations which died during the Genesis Flood. Their bodies may exhibit mechanisms or residual evidence of antediluvian conditions. There may also be other techniques for analyzing samples of pre-Flood conditions such as fluid inclusions in vesicles of pillow lava. Vesicles are small glass bubbles formed when magma cools. Pillow lava formed underwater would likely capture small samples of sea water which would have retained the characteristics of the water when it was trapped.​

Of even more importance is the likely addition of major quantities of salts during the Genesis Flood. If the Flood is as catastrophic as the Bible states in which “all the high hills were covered”, it is probable that the Flood would have caused global devastation of unimaginable magnitude. There was no such thing as a calm, worldwide Flood. And, the geologic record exhibits evidence for an incredible global catastrophe in which the earth’s entire ocean and the crust were involved. About ¾ of the earth’s land surface is covered with sedimentary rock formed during the Genesis Flood when material from the crust was pulverized and mixed into the ocean, finally settling to the bottom to form sediments which turned into rock when the water retreated from off the land. During the process in which rocks, gravel, sand, and muds rained through the ocean to form sediments on the ocean floor the ocean was leaching salts and minerals from the materials. Dissolved salts and minerals were left in the water after the Flood contributing to the load of Na + and other ions we find in the ocean today. So, it easy to see that the ocean must be much younger than the conventionally assumed age and very likely supports an age of thousands of years if earth history as recounted in the Bible is taken literally.​

Minor Gases in the Atmosphere​

Like the ocean the atmosphere contains evidence of past geophysical processes. Instead of dissolved solids like the ocean, the atmosphere contains concentrations of minor permanent gases which help us understand past chemical and nuclear processes. The atmosphere is composed mostly of nitrogen (~78%) and oxygen (~21%). It also contains much smaller concentrations of many other chemically active gases such as carbon dioxide and the noble gases argon (~1%), neon, helium, krypton, and xenon which are inert ( Walker, 1977). These noble gases are particularly useful because they do not participate in chemical reactions and their concentrations can help to quantify the types and rates of nuclear processes. For example, the radioactive element uranium-238 is commonly present in many crustal rocks and forms helium when it disintegrates by nuclear decay. As the helium leaks from the rocks in the crust of the earth it escapes into the atmosphere where its concentration has been used to estimate how long the rocks have been decaying. Helium is a relatively light gas and a small amount can escape earth’s gravitational field when it is ionized and accelerate upward by what is called the polar wind. For several years before the magnitude of the polar wind was determined Vardiman (1990) reported that the lack of helium in the atmosphere argued for a young earth. That argument is no longer valid based on the measured and computed escape rate of helium to space in the polar wind. However, the large concentrations of helium remaining in crustal minerals is still a strong argument. Humphreys (2005) has presented an air-tight case that the earth is 6,000 ± 2,000 years based on the residual concentration of helium in zircon grains of granites and the rapid diffusion rate of helium from them.​

Another gas which could be used for this calculation is argon. It is produced by the decay of uranium in the rocks of the earth. Argon contributes the largest amount of any of the minor gases to the atmospheric composition. It is also massive enough that it will not escape to space by any conceivable mechanism. Its concentration should then be directly related to the amount of nuclear decay in the rocks of the earth. However, quantifying the amount of time based on the amount of argon in the atmosphere has several complexities which make it difficult to use. First, the rate of escape from the crust to the atmosphere is uncertain. Because argon is such a massive atom, it is also relatively large compared to other gases like helium. It is harder for such a large atom to diffuse from the crystalline structure in rocks where it is formed and, thus, should have a slower escape rate from the crust. Diffusion rates of argon from various minerals need to be validated. Second, Vardiman et al. (2005) found that nuclear processes in rocks of the earth have been accelerated during episodes in earth history which make invalid a simple calculation of the age of the earth based only on the concentration of argon in the atmosphere divided by an assumed constant production rate. The large amount of argon in the atmosphere argues for a large amount of nuclear decay, but not necessarily a long period of time. And, third, like most geochronometers, the problem of the initial concentration of argon needs to be dealt with. Once again, it is not necessary to assume a zero concentration of argon in the atmosphere at its origin.​

Conclusions​

It is becoming more and more evident that many geophysical arguments from the ocean and atmosphere support a young earth. In fact, conventional explanations for an old earth must often beg the question by special pleading and ignoring conflicting data. Many processes like heat and salt in the ocean and helium and argon in the atmosphere argue directly for a young earth. Some of the estimates for the age of the earth can even be quantified when catastrophic processes revealed in the Bible are considered. So, the age-of-the-earth problem is not so much one of forcing science and the Bible to agree, but rather, one of believing the Bible to establish the proper scientific questions. The future of creation science is bright due to so many highly-trained scientists who have confidence in the Bible now working on such problems.​

 

He didn't. He said not to rule belief out

Exactly. He said belief is not ruled out.

Fine, like you say you're not a scientist, although your link does give some very obvious and basic reasoning why the salt clock doesn't work.

One reason why the salt clock doesn't work....usd.edu
"As plate tectonics shapes our Earth, sea beds rise and evaporate, leaving large salt deposits."

dude, "just stop"

 

Responding to all the posts Stu has made saying that God is imaginary:

"If" God is imaginary, (and it is not possible that He is) I am very blessed and helped by Him. No other imaginary friend could reveal himself to me through words written by others (in the Bible), directed to me. No other imaginary friend could answer my prayers or look out for my well-being by orchestrating events beyond my control. No other imaginary friend could really love me and reveal that love to me in unexpected ways. No other imaginary friend could show me the ways I've hurt Him or been unfaithful to Him, yet make it very clear that all is forgiven and I am loved. If indeed, God were to be imaginary, I have been more blessed than ever by His friendship and the knowledge of His Kindness as a Person....but as I have said, it is not possible that He is not real.

It's not just me who has had a real and interactive relationship with God. Before you think about sending me off to the funny farm, remember that there are BILLIONS of others since humanity's beginnings that also shared experiences similar to mine of a real relationship with the God of the Bible.

In addition to that, the prophecies that came true in Christ, words that were written hundreds of years before He came, are proof that God has given to anyone who will listen, that He is, and He has provided a way for a reconciled relationship with Himself. There are many prophesies of Jesus, but here is one passage. The words seem clear to me. One was to come who would bear sin, himself becoming an offering, by death, and yet live. We who believe are His offspring, He has made us born again into His family, so that we can someday enjoy heaven with Him. Jesus has been raised from the dead and although He has always been eternal, having become one of us humans, he continues on, in endless life.

I believe the resurrection, as well as Jesus' work on the cross is what these verses are talking about, written by Isaiah about 700 years before Jesus came. I also believe God meant these words to be evidence so that we could know that Jesus is Who He said He is, did what was prophesied He would do, and is the Savior for all who will receive Him.

Isaiah 53: 10b-12
​

his soul makes an offering for guilt,​

He dies, yet lives:

he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
​

He will have the spoils of conquest because He died....life after death....I believe this means the joy of heaven, where sin will no more raise its ugly head:

12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
​

I am blessed by knowing God. I also have strong reasons to believe that His Word is reliable and He is Who He says He is.

 

It most certainly is possible that God is imaginary in fact by definition, God equates exactly with the very meaning of the word.

Children do more normally understand how imaginary friends are not actually real. Adults however on the whole seem more prepared to contrive deceit and apply dissemblance to their shared imaginary friend.

God, like Dragons - imaginary. It's just dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

I spent some time today thinking about the changes that take place in a person who has become "born again." Many have testified that there was a distinct moment when they came to grips with the gospel message, the message that all have sinned and are in need of Jesus as a Savior, and that in turning to Him in their hearts, there was a definite change that took place. The Bible speaks of being indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit from the moment of repentant faith in Jesus. The presence of the Holy Spirit is not something seen, and not exactly felt either. It is, however, noticed by us who have believed, as an influence within us, leading us to understandings of who God is. It might be better to explain it this way, there have been times when I have become extremely aware of some aspect of God's character, which gave me the impression that He was communicating with me. Oftentimes, this has come through times of pondering on Scripture or in a church service, when a certain aspect of God's character was addressed. Sometimes it has happened when in private prayer. Often, but not always, the focus is on the wonderfulness that God would condescend to suffer to provide salvation for us, in our sinful condition, including those who haven't wanted Him or His ways.

The Holy Spirit also works to help a Christian to want to live in a way that pleases Him. This does not mean, and should not mean, a list of rules to be kept in fear. It does mean that knowing that God is good and hates all that is not good, that I try to bring my desires into alignment with what I believe He likes.

There is a place for fear, however. We were created with wills and God lets us choose to do as we want, nor forcing us to follow His righteous ways. The Bible records from the first book to the last that people do not want the rule of God over their lives. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," Solomon wrote. For a believer, we no longer fear judgment but we do have a sense of the awesomeness of His Person, His right as a King to rule, and know that He will discipline His own children as needed. However, the emphasis is on a loving relationship. In fact, many scriptures command believers not to be afraid, but to trust God.

The first step toward finding God is the "fear of the Lord." Part of that is becoming willing to recognize that God has the right to rule over us. What gives Him this right? I copied part of an article that does a good job explaining some of this question. Because it's been abstracted, the flow of thought isn't as clear as if one were to read the whole article, but I think there is enough here to provide a biblical answer to this question. Bold lettering added by me.

https://www.xenos.org/teachings/?teaching=792

This raises an obvious question: Does God have the right to interrupt and invade and impose his will on humanity? Why does God have the right to rule?.....

_____

God on his Throne
Read 4:2-7.
​

Inserting Revelation 4:2-8 NIV: At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

“‘Holy, holy, holy

is the Lord God Almighty,’

who was, and is, and is to come.”

The scene is God's throne-room. Notice the emphasis on God's throne (8 times). “Throne” signifies authority to rule. This vision concerns God's authority to rule.

John does not see a physical body because God the Father has no physical body. The phenomena surrounding the throne (brilliant colored stones in 4:3; lightening and thunder in 4:5; sea of glass in 4:6) all describe the unique majesty of God. The Roman Emperor Domitian (who exiled John) sat in a resplendent throne-room and was dressed in impressive clothing. He commanded his herald to announce his presence with the words, “You are worthy, our Lord and our God.”1 But what John sees makes the Emperor look like a street urchin in the city dump!

The 24 elders probably represent all believers (white garments—see 3:5, 18)—both before (12 nations of Israel) and after (12 apostles) Christ's first coming. The living creatures probably represent unfallen angels (see Ezek. 1).

What follows are two expressions of worship to God which give us two important reasons why God has the right to rule.

Read 4:8. Yes, God has the right to “come” (to judge and rule) because he is supremely powerful (“Lord;” “Almighty”). But the emphasis in their praise is on God's holiness (front of sentence; 3 times as superlative—“the holiest of all”). “Holy” means “different”—and it refers here primarily to God's moral difference from (superiority over) us. God has the right to impose his rule on the earth because he is the only morally perfect Being in the universe.

The God of the Bible is not simply a God of raw power, unbridled by moral character. That's what the 20th century's tyrants were (HITLER; STALIN; MAO)—and that's what made their rules so hellish. The God of the Bible exercises his infinite power in perfect righteousness. His understanding of good and evil are perfect, his discernment of human hearts is perfect, his aversion to evil and his love of good is perfect, his respect of human freedom and his judgment on when that freedom must be curtailed are perfect, etc.

In fact, in view of how holy God is and how much evil and injustice there is in human history, the “problem” is why God hasn't intervened already (6:10). But God has good reasons for waiting, as we will see (more on this later).

Read 4:9-11.
​

Inserting 4:9-11 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

​

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Here is the second reason why God is has the right to impose his dominion (“You are worthy . . . to receive power”)—because he is the Creator of the entire world. Certainly it makes sense that the Creator has a right over his creation (ANALOGY?). The Bible applies this reason in two ways.

God has the right to intervene in judgment in order to save his creation from destruction. Evidently, many of the terrible ecological disasters of the end of the age are perpetrated not by God, but by his enemies. 11:18 says that God will come to “destroy those who destroy the earth.” We'll look at this more closely next week . . .
​

Skipping some....

The point is that Jesus has the right to open the scroll (initiate the events culminating in God's rule) because he was willing to first come and die for our sins. The Lion has the right to rule because he has first come as the Lamb who was slain.

Here is the third reason why God has the right to impose his rule on humanity: because he has already paid the ultimate price to save humanity. This proves God's love (John 3:16,17)! 5:8-14 further explains this and exalts Jesus for it (read).

Briefly point the deity of Jesus through 4:10, 5:8, 12 and 5:13.

Jesus is worthy to bring human history to God's conclusion because he died to pay for all of humanity's sins—and because people from all of humanity have actually received this payment. Only after Jesus paid for this gift, only after news of it goes out to the whole world, and only after some from every ethnic group have actually received this gift will the Lamb who was slain return as the Lion who will rule. (This is why God has waited so long to end the world.)
​

It is God's right to rule over us that people reject and is really at the heart of the problems of humanity since the fall in the Garden of Eden.

In a believer, the Holy Spirit changes a person so that they begin to want His rulership over them. There are times when we should purposefully ask God to work His will in us or in a situation, but for the most part, God changes the desires of our hearts. We now want, rather than reject, Him and His right to rule over us.

Ezekiel 36:26 describes is like this: "And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart."

Charles Spurgeon described the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in this way:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/spurgeon_charles/sermons/0339.cfm

But again, everything that is good in a Christian you know to be the work of God the Holy Ghost. When at any time then the Holy Spirit comforts you-sheds a sweet calm over your disturbed spirit; when at any period he instructs you, opens to you a mystery you did not understand before; when at some special period he inspires you with an unwonted affection, an unusual faith in Christ; when you experience a hatred of sin, a faith in Jesus, a death to the world, and a life to God, these are the works of the Spirit.​

I'm hoping that this post has explained why those who have come into a personal relationship with Jesus as their Savior, who have become "born again," are experiencing the workings of God in their lives in a way that those who have not come to personal, repentant faith in Jesus, have never experienced.

 

Born again is a reference to slow learners like the Pharisee Nicodemus. Slow learners need multiple incarnations to figure things out. This includes fast learners like Jesus who saved himself many more incarnations by ACCEPTING Christ as his Self. Christ has no beginning (birth) or end (death).

 

I really don't want to get into a debate with you over your beliefs. I disagree with what you wrote because it is not what the Bible teaches. You have already acknowledged that your belief system is not based on the Bible. I have come to realize that the Bible is the only source of truth about God. The Bible itself has claimed this.

Psalm 119:160 "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal."

Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield to them that put their trust in him."

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction..."

Hebrews 1:1,2 "On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe."

 

Lol everyone has some atheism.
You not believing in Good1's God is like those who don't believe in your God. Basically that's what it is to be atheist!

“Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished ....”
Sir Francis Bacon​