It doesn't. The Bible shows no choice. Adam & Eve could not possibly know what was good or evil, before having knowledge of good and evil, before eating that apple. With no knowledge to understand whether obeying or disobeying Bible God was good or bad until biting the apple, they had no experience to choose evil over good. That would require they had already bitten the apple to obtain knowledge of good and evil- to know one from the other. According to the tale, Bible God knew what was "very good" yet set them a nasty ambush knowing Eve would in all her innocence and ignorance, take a bite of the apple. If there was evil in that story, then it was in Bible God's own iniquity, already having knowledge and by it, setting a wicked trap. 'There is only one good - knowledge, and one evil - ignorance.' Socrates So that's a yes then. You were born with sin. You inherited it - like it or not, you had no choice in the matter and poof... there goes your free will. It's good for you Eve did bite the apple in that Bible tale. For if she hadn't, like her, you'd have no knowledge of good or evil. No way of choosing to believe imaginary God was being good, even when it was being evil.
Stu said: Adam & Eve could not possibly know what was good or evil, before having knowledge of good and evil, before eating that apple. They did not understand the ramifications. However, neither did they go back to God and enquire further what He meant. They are similar to people today who make up their minds about whether God is to be believed or not based on what they want to be true and without making honest enquiry about evidence. However, they did not need the detailed knowledge of good and evil in order to become responsible for their choice. Thus, they chose to deliberately reject His one rule, and in doing so, rejected His right to rule over them. Even today, God gives us sufficient light to understand His existence. See Romans 1:19-20. However, God Himself, as God, determines what evidence to give us and He decrees that it is adequate. The problem is that people do not want the evidence to be true and willfully choose to ignore it. See 2Peter 3:5. They want to decide the rules for God to accept them. But because God is God, He alone sets the standards. He does, however, give us the choice to reject Him and His standards. Stu said: With no knowledge to understand whether obeying or disobeying Bible God was good or bad until biting the apple, they had no experience to choose evil over good. That would require they had already bitten the apple to obtain knowledge of good and evil- to know one from the other. You are trying to tell God how He had to do it. You are basing this on your own ideas and desires. This perspective already rejects Him and His authority. However, Jesus made it clear that a person who honestly seeks God and truth will find it. Jesus said, "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." John 7:17 NIV Also, see Matthew 7:7-8. A person can be tempted to make all kinds of arguments that make God appear to be unreasonable. All this does is establish that they do not know Him. A living God who can create a galaxy in an instant out of His innate power, placing every atom in it according to His wisdom and choices, is not dependent on man’s approval for what He does. A man who chooses to assert His will against such a God is fighting a losing battle. However, God can be trusted to have done exactly what was right when giving Adam and Eve the opportunity to reject Him. God created them as adults and with the ability to talk. He assigned them work, to take care of the garden. They had cognitive and reasoning abilities even though they lacked experiential knowledge of good and evil. They knew God had created them. They knew God had commanded and warned them. Although we do not know how much of the warning “dying you shall surely die” they understood, God gave them the warning and God knew that they knew and understood enough for Him to hold them responsible. The physical act of taking the fruit and placing it into their mouths was a choice they made with the intent to disobey God’s command. Stu said: According to the tale, Bible God knew what was "very good" yet set them a nasty ambush knowing Eve would in all her innocence and ignorance, take a bite of the apple. If there was evil in that story, then it was in Bible God's own iniquity, already having knowledge and by it, setting a wicked trap God says that “My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways….For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8,9 NKJV There is no way that a man can understand the reasoning and purposes of a living God who can design a universe with quantum mechanics and relativity theory active in it. The problem with the man who is already rejecting God in His heart is that he uses anything that he doesn’t like or understand as an excuse to reject and mock God. To God, this only demonstrates the truth of His evaluations and decisions. God’s character is such that He would only do what was right in His provision of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God was good in His design of a plan where His creatures could turn away from Him even though by their rejection of His rulership over them, they would become marred by evil and that would necessitate everlasting punishment (“dying you shall surely die”). Their turning away from God meant they were turning away from the Source all that is good and right. Don’t get me wrong, turning from God has nothing good about it. It is the most terrible thing to do and has the worst consequence imaginable. I’m saying that it was right, in God’s sight, to provide Adam and Eve with the ability to reject His rule. What do I base that line of thought on? God said that what He had made was “very good" and that included the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Also, it makes sense that God, being all-powerful, is able to make creatures that are capable of rejecting His rulership over them, without Himself partaking in their choice. He did not coerce them to disobey Him and it was not His desire that they would disobey. One place in scripture implies that Adam and Eve dealt treacherously against God by breaking the covenant. “ But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.” Hosea 6:7 NASB Scripture tells us that God is good in who He is and in all that He does: O Lord, you are so good, so ready to forgive, so full of unfailing love for all who ask for your help. Psalm 86:5 NLT His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. Deuteronomy 32:4 NASB God made humankind upright, but they have sought many evil schemes. Ecc 7:29 NET And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Isaiah 45:21 NASB I previously wrote: To directly answer your question, "Do you believe you were born with sin or not?: I was born with a sinful nature passed down to me from my ancestor, Adam. Stu wrote: So that's a yes then. You were born with sin. You inherited it - like it or not, you had no choice in the matter and poof... there goes your free will. God, in His sovereignty and wisdom, also provided a way of escape. “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 NKJV Jesus also said, “Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Rev 22:17 NKJV Just because a person may not understand how God works these things out does not mean that God is unable to do so. Stu said: "It's good for you Eve did bite the apple in that Bible tale. For if she hadn't, like her, you'd have no knowledge of good or evil. No way of choosing to believe imaginary God was being good, even when it was being evil." God has never been evil, never done any evil, never has caused anyone to do evil and is “too pure to look on evil.” God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God must punish evil. God would not be a God of justice if He tolerated evil. He waits patiently, desiring our repentance, but ultimately, all sin must be judged. See Romans 2:4. Adam and Eve rejected God’s rule over them, but what about the rest of us? Why don’t each of us get our own forbidden tree to choose to eat from? Scripture doesn’t explain a lot on the subject, but, as I pointed out in my previous post, it does say that the sin nature is inherited. There is one thing hinted at in Scripture that seems to shed light on this. I hesitate to share it, because it is debated among theologians, so this is my current opinion rather than a biblical teaching. The concept is called traducianism. According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traducianism#:~:text=In Christian theology, traducianism is,material aspect of human beings All Church Fathers agreed that the soul of Adam was directly created by God, they disagreed about if humans thereafter were each given souls as a special act of Creation or if it was passed on to them the same way their bodies were. ___________ Supporters of traducianism present arguments from the Bible such as: Traducianists find support in Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned..." and 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,"[6] Foundational to the traducian position is the statement in Hebrews:7:10 "When Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor."[10] This free downloadable book also discusses traducianism: https://educatingourworld.com/images/PDFs/Humanity-Sin-Salvation/humans-who-are-we.pdf Question 13 on page 64 discusses the question of the creation of a new soul at conception. Question 14 on page 70 discusses the question of each soul being passed on at conception. Here are some excerpts: We Were All In Adam The Bible says that the entire human race was in Adam when Adam sinned. Paul wrote the following to the Romans. When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given, they all died anyway-- even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come (Romans 5:12-14 NLT). Adam, the first human, was our representative in some sense. His sin brought death to all of us. Indeed, Scripture says that Adam had children in his likeness. This is the history of the descendants of Adam. When God created people, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and he blessed them and called them “human.” When Adam was 130 years old, his son Seth was born, and Seth was the very image of his father (Genesis 5:1-3 NLT). Unfortunately, this likeness or image was a sinful image. It summarizes the position on page 72, (I added the bold lettering): Traducianism teaches that each soul is passed on at the time of conception. The parents, therefore, transfer their sin nature to their children. According to this view, every human being was, “in Adam” when Adam first sinned in the Garden of Eden. Therefore the invisible part of each of us is passed on naturally or at our conception. Contrary to creationism, there is no supernatural creation of individual human souls each time a new life is conceived. While this seems to be the most consistent way to understand how each of us are born with a spirit or soul there is no clear biblical explanation as to how this occurs. This should keep us from being too certain about how this mysterious process works Whether or not traducianism gives the correct reason for why we inherit our sin nature, we are still without excuse for our sins and we know that God declares Himself to be righteous. We can say with the psalmist, “Your kingdom is founded on righteousness and justice; love and faithfulness are shown in all you do.” Psalm 89:14 GNT God seeks to reconcile people to Himself. He became one of us and suffered unimaginably the judgment that we deserve so that He would still be just when forgiving our sins and "cleansing us from all unrighteousness.” "Via Dolorosa" by Sandy Patti: Down the Via Dolorosa called the way of suffering Like a lamb came the Messiah Christ the King But He chose to walk that road out of His love for you and me Down the Via Dolorosa all the way to Calvary. God showed us that He still loves us, even though people continue to reject Him, by His suffering for us. He really wants us to be restored to Himself. “...these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” 1 John 2:1, 2 NKJV
Certainly. Doing something evil like setting up a poison tree as a trap in the middle of paradise, requiring complete obedience in anything and everything supposedly done or said no matter how bad, how genocidal, how cruel, how wicked, just because 'God knows best', makes it right to call that 'evil' out for what it is. Someone has to tell your pretend God how to act better. After all, credit where it's due, pretend Moses did. "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." "The Lord changed His mind about this. ‘It shall not be,’ said the Lord." Like Moses then, perhaps you should know better. Bible God is clearly culpable of evil which presents an affront to the most basic human understanding of what is good and what is evil. Due to ineluctable ignorance and the despicable trick played on them, Adam and Eve can be excused. Trying to exonerate your imaginary friend of its evil deeds with hollow, blind, self-serving religious faith, is no excuse at all.
Responding to Stu: In Job 40:8 God said, "Would you really challenge my justice? Would you declare me guilty to justify yourself?"
Then go tell Job 40:8 stu said, it is surely right to challenge all evil, even God's which calls itself justice, and condemn it. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." Blaise Pascal
In response to Stu Isaiah wrote: I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted….. Above Him stood seraphim, each having six wings….And they were calling out to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory.” ...Then I said: “Woe is me, for I am ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips dwelling among a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of Hosts.” Isaiah 6:1-5 BSB
"Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:31 BSB
Indeed. Like whoever authored Luke wasn't persuaded by the Greek God Dionysus who was risen from the dead. What would imaginary Jesus have had to do to persuade you? Would he have had to perform a miracle? What would Jesus have to do now to persuade you, would any of these do? As things stand, being imaginary is clearly sufficient. Funny how all other religions are myth, except for the one someone decides to sucker themselves into. You've been parroting one flaky bible verse after another to the point where it seems you're no longer able to think independently. No offense intended, it's just sad really to see the failure in human reasoning which the extreme looking religious superstition you have evidently subsists on.
%% That; + many answered prayers, so specific, miracles for sure.Supernatural healings, like in the Bible...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..