Dual Citizen US and EU/EEA

Discussion in 'Taxes and Accounting' started by Real Money, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. Real Money

    Real Money

    Hi guys. I'm wondering if anybody would know how to leverage having US and EU nationality (specifically US and IRELAND).

    I'm only gonna be trading futures on CME and ECBOT, and maybe EUREX / SGX / OSE later on (but never really as much).

    Is there any obvious location in EU where I could take advantage of this? I have heard that traders in IRE can get good tax treatment. (wan't to leave US anyway).

    Spain is cheap and has beaches. Ireland is getting expensive, cold there. No idea about NL, GER, or BG but interested. I'm guessing FRA is not good and I heard Sweden, Norway, and Finland are not good because so much tax and living expenses. Maybe Gibraltar? Interested in Portugal as well. Switzerland, Austria, Eastern Europe?

    Too many choices. I don't know anywhere near enough to figure this out.

    If anybody from the EU has any ideas or points of reference I would really appreciate it.

    P.S. I know that I should speak with a competent tax attorney specializing in international taxation.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  2. danielc1


    Are you not taxed as us citizen, just because you are a us citizen?
    I know there are tax rules that can say you are exempt because you pay the tax in other country, but then there must be an agreement between the us and that country.

    Nl: depends on your trading, but they can tax just the base with a low %, not on your profits.

    I would never move to a country just for the tax, every country you name, has a very different culture and they treat their citizens very different. The country's you write of, are just the ones that treat their citizens like kings
    Real Money likes this.
  3. Real Money

    Real Money

    There are tax treaty with many country. But, it is very complicated. This is why many trader who reside overseas have LLC and accounting structure to control tax. Money that you earn in US has to be reported to local tax jurisdiction of residence (in most cases).

    Yes you are liable for tax no matter where you reside as US citizen. I just don't like housing market and cost of living vs quality of life in the states. Seems like you waste money and are forced to allocate funds to stupid things like down payment, mortgage interest, insurances. The US is very expensive relative to what you get in terms of convenience and quality of life, leisure activity and so forth. It is also very far from global travel destination, causing expensive airfare. Europe has attractive quality of life and lower costs.

    Also, I am interested in possible advantages of dual citizen US/EU for living in South East Asia. South East Asia has very low cost of living in many cases. Thanks for your response!
  4. Sig


    Of all the items you listed only the travel benefits are real. You'll always pay at least as much tax as you would if you were in the U.S. as long as you're a U.S. citizen, no matter the tax treaty or LLC or whatever. In most cases you'll pay more. The only exception to this is actually not leaving the U.S. but instead going to Puerto Rico or the USVI. Property prices, taxes, down payments, and the rest are the same or more onerous pretty much everywhere in Europe when comparing like to like (rural to rural, city to city and neighborhood to neighborhood....it's damn cheap to live in rural Kansas if cheap is all you care about! Even coastal NC or MS is pretty cheap). Cost of living, again I think you're being delusional there...you do understand how VAT works don't you?
    You need to go do a trip to the place you want to live in Europe and stay in an AirBnB for a month, track your grocery costs, look at actual houses and the prices and availability of mortgages, the price of home goods....and make a very detailed very exact tally of the costs. If you would love to live in rural Spain and you're now living in NYC then it will probably absolutely be cheaper and you may very well be happier, just go into it eyes open that you're not moving because Spain writ large its cheaper, less hassle, less tax...then an equivalent spot in the U.S. Those are are awful reasons to choose where to live anyway, the whole point of money is to be able to live where you want simply because you want to.
  5. Nobert


    Lithuania, all trading/investing/dividends profits = same 15% profit tax.
    (be it less than 365 days or not)

    Cold winters tho ( down to -30 )

    (Disclaimer : haven't payed any tho, yet, still on demo path.)

    Nothing too much amazing about those facts, except that we were responsible for the longest guerilla war in Europes history, after WW2 occupation, & were the first ones to announce our independence in Soviet Union. Our relationships with Russian imperialistic ideologies - ain't that good :D
    (it's pretty close on map tho)
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  6. Sig


    And if you're a U.S. citizen you still pay the EXACT SAME short/long term capital gains and dividend tax no matter if you're in the U.S., Lithuania, Latvia, Mongolia, or on the moon. At best. At worst there's no tax treaty with Lithuania and you pay their 15% tax PLUS the regular U.S. tax. Worldwide taxation system, not something a U.S. citizen can get around without revoking or moving to PR or USVI.
    gkishot and Nobert like this.
  7. Real Money

    Real Money

    I am seeing some deals on apartments in Spain bro. Can't get apartments in US for 49k Euro.

    Taxes matter, but stuff like this can make a pretty big difference in terms of quality of life. I wouldn't mind moving to Spain. Also, great timezone to be in if you trade the NYSE open.

    (I don't have any affiliation or business interest with fotocasa or this property: this is just an example for proof of cheap apartment overseas)
  8. Sig


    So 49K Euro is $55K USD plus you have a 10% VAT on residential property, so the reference price for this listing is $60K. To further convert, this is a 46 m^2 apartment which is 500 square feet, 1 bed, 1 bath adjacent to a light industrial/retail area in the back of a mid-size city that is itself on the ocean.
    What do you know, here's a significantly bigger apartment in Biloxi, MS for $39,000 https://www.realtor.com/realestatea...-Apt-126_Biloxi_MS_39531_M86365-60924?view=qv
    And $44,000 in Jacksonville, FL https://www.realtor.com/realestatea...06_Jacksonville_FL_32207_M51659-90246?view=qv
    And one literally on the ocean in Corpus Christi, TX for $60K https://www.realtor.com/realestatea..._Corpus-Christi_TX_78402_M88684-29008?view=qv
    and of course we could go on pretty much everywhere from Corpus to Delaware and find similar excluding a couple large cities like Miami.
    My job moved me an average of once every 3 years for the first 25 years of my professional life, and it always amazed me how even I tended to live in a bubble and not realize that the rest of the U.S. could be very different from the place I was living until I moved...again. I also saw a lot of "grass is greener" mentality with that job and the OP is most definitely exhibiting all the signs of that in spades. Listen, I love Europe and plan to move to the same general area within the next 5-10 years, so I'm all for it and have done a good bit of research on it including some long trips. The bottom line is that you have to be realistic about it or you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. If you think taxes will be lower, then you're absolutely setting yourself up for disappointment because they absolutely will not be for a U.S. citizen. If you think cost of living will be lower, well there's lots of variables to that but in general Spain, especially with 21% VAT which most Americans don't really grasp until they move there, is at best going to be at par with a comparable area in the U.S. and is most probably going to be more expensive and in some cases significantly more.
    On the other hand, if you want to move to Spain because you love Spanish food, want to travel around Europe on weekends and short holidays, want to immerse yourself in Spanish, or yes, even want to wake up late to hit the AM NYSE open then you've got a much better chance of finding what you're looking for. Obviously my free advice is worth what you pay for it, but especially in my time in Hawaii I saw a whole lot of dreamers crash into a reality they easily could have researched but purposely ignored because they had stars in their eyes. It was a painful, demoralizing, and ultimately expensive journey of discovery for them, so if I can at least get you to go in a little more eyes wide open then hopefully there's a somewhat better chance it will end up as a positive life experience rather than negative. Good luck to the OP!
    Real Money, Nobert and gkishot like this.