Don't you just love the French?

If the best you can do is to call people stupid, then indeed you have lost the argument.

 

You won .. are you happy darling???

 

Because US interests were never threatened. Why should the US fork over our taxpayer dollars to fight a cause that has no economic impact to us? The government reserves the right to be selective on which causes to fight for.

Stability in the Middle East is of paramount concern for the US. Hence, our involvement in Iraqi affairs. For your info, Iraq controls one of the world's largest oil reserves.

Palestine is a terrorist state. The circumstances that created this are definitely unfair. Heck, if I was forcibly kicked out of my home I'd want to kick ass to get it back. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, Israel is the recognized country in that region and has a right to self-defense (as the Palestinians do).

The Palestinians have two realistic choices: Either try to salvage what little territory is left to them through reasonable and peaceful dialogue, or continue this terrorist war and have themselves expelled from the region, or worse, killed.

All of this whining about the unfairness of it all is not productive. Traderfut, instead of accusing Americans of being Nazis, why don't you present a reasonable solution to the Palestinian problem and let's have an educated debate. Fingerpointing is a waste of time and will accomplish nothing but incense the Americans on this forum. I know you're smarter than that.

 

That you admit you LOST the argument, is the first reasonable thing you have said in this thread.

Congratulations, and welcome to the human race.

 

Gotta go with Stu on this one pretty much. Traderfut, you know I respect your intelligence. So it frustrates me no end that no matter how much I truly try and empathize with your position, no matter what I or others say, you seem totally inflexible in your thinking.

Israel and the US are "nazi" regimes. The "palestinians" are unfairly oppressed, and justified in their actions.

The US should be still held accountable for atrocities committed long ago against africans and native american indians, and no regard given to the great strides taken since. The Muslims should be lauded for their acceptance of the jews during the inquisition, and therefore should to this day be seen as a peaceful and tolerant people.

The past is over. The present and future are what we need to live with. Today, there is no doubt in my mind that what is happening in the West Bank and Gaza could be ended in one moment if Arafat wanted it to end. No doubt whatsoever.

I cannot understand how it can not be abundantly clear to you that "peace" is NOT an objective of the PA or Arafat. If they wanted "peace" they would have had it in July of 2000. Instead, they started the "infatada" which continues to this day. They have essentially accomplished the economic collapse of Israel and yet they do not seem to realize that terror and economic pressures will still not accomplish their real goal....the complete destruction of Israel. When will they come to realize that Israel is here to stay? Their refusal to deal with this reality has always worked against them. For no reason. Again, the Arab-Israelis have more rights than the Arabs in the rest of the Middle East, especially women and especially women in Saudi Arabia. I mentioned this numerous times, and yet there is never a response to it. Only the negatives about Israel register with TF.

Another issue you do not answer.....I have said that if the PA had Israels strong army and weaponry, they would readily use it and end the existence of Israel in a moment. Yet Israel does have this power, and still, the PA exists. Have they (the Israelis) made it difficult for the Palestinians? Obviously. Have they destroyed the Palestinians and their leaders? Obviously not. But put the shoe on the other foot, and tell me what you think would happen.

Stu is right. You have not given any thought to the other point of view at all. I have, as have many here who have posted what essentially is a consensus that both sides are to blame. But a resolution CAN be reached. But only when both sides WANT a resolution. I KNOW Israel wants an end to the situation. I do not KNOW that the PA does. It seems they only want 100% of their demands. This is not how negotiations are done.

As far as Traderfut vs. Thunderbolt.....Well I believe that Traderfut is at least capable of thinking this through and eventually coming to a reasonable conclusion. A conclusion that there are ways to resolve this mess and that both sides need to compromise. I could be wrong, but I remain hopeful. I know Traderfut may be stubborn and (so far) closed minded, but I also know he is intelligent and therefore capable of the most important attribute there is in issues like this...the ability to reconsider, re-evaluate, and realize that compromise and empathy are needed to reach peace.

I think Thunderbolt is too far gone to ever see anything other than his own truth. He is so completely intolerant that his fanaticism precludes any rational thought and has proven this by statements that are so nonsensical as to prove that he is either stupid or insane. I don't think he is stupid. Which leaves only one alternative. In my whole life I have never heard anything as absurd as Tbolt's contention that the calendar "proves" the existence of Jesus. I have read his posts. He is capable of thought. Even somewhat rational thought if it is not about religion. But his fanatical beliefs are those that can only be ascribed to a truly diseased mind. Traderfut is in no way in such a sad state. I think Traderfut is a very bright but misled guy who is a product of his environment and upbringing. Yet I know there is hope for him. I wish I could say the same about Tbolt. But the beauty of it all is that Tbolt is so absolutely sure of his beliefs, that he is blissful knowing a better world awaits him. Sadly not one with 72 virgins, but whatever his equivalent of that would be. (Although I cannot fathom what would make him as happy as 72 virgins......maybe a library filled with bibles and a picture window looking into hell so he can watch the rest of us burn for eternity). Everyone has their own personal version of heaven.

Peace,
rs7

 

You are right Goldenarm. Maybe I am a bit provocative but I never answer that way to people that are reasonable and your words are reasonable.

You are right that The US defends its interests and only its interests. What I dislike is the hypocrisy behind that.

So basically the US is doing debatable things and says to the whole world that it wants to save the world and bring the Nazi example on the table.

And this is why I say NO, stop lying to the planet. Of course I azm a bit provocative, I know there are good american and not everyone there is an asshole but let's face it there are assholes in the US there are people that are killing people all over the world and say look we kill the savage or we defend ourselves.

September 11 was a drama but it's nothing (on a number basis) it's nothing. everyday you have a sept 11 in Iraq.


For Palestine, zillions resolutions were voted and never enforced. I think that the american should wake up and say NO ... Have a look at the link below it's just unacceptable for a guy like me.
Many people in Europe are agaisnt the US policy and in Florence (Italy) some 1 million people demonstrated against a war on Iraq and for palestinian state.
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

 

Goldenarm. This is a very good article written by an american professor.

by Robert Jensen

I helped kill a Palestinian today.

If you pay taxes to the U.S. government, so did you.

And unless the policies of the U.S. government change, tomorrow will be no different.

It is easy for Americans to decry the “cycle of violence” in Palestine, but until we acknowledge our own part in that violence, there is little hope for a just peace in Palestine or the Middle East.

The first step is to abandon the mythology that the United States is a “neutral broker for peace” in the conflict. A new report by the Institute for Southern Studies shows that in the one-year period after the Sharm el-Sheikh peace agreement in September 1999, the U.S. government pumped $3.6 billion worth of arms into Israel -- an odd policy for a country playing a supposedly neutral role.

So, when we hear on the news that Israeli tanks are rolling through the cities and refugee camps of the West Bank, we should remember those tanks were made in the United States and purchased by Israel with U.S. aid. The Israeli jets and helicopters used in the assault are American F-16s, Blackhawks and Apaches. Machine guns, grenade launchers, missiles and bombs -- made in the USA, paid for with our tax dollars -- are being used to crush the Palestinian people. That means we must face two realties:

First, the current Israeli attack on West Bank towns is not a war on terrorism, but part of a long and brutal war against the Palestinian people for land and resources. If Israel is serious about ending terrorism, it would end its 35-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Until it demonstrates a willingness to do that, Israeli calls for peace ring hollow and its attempts to achieve security through force will only make it less secure.

Second, Israel’s war against the Palestinians would not be possible without U.S. military and economic support -- $3 billion a year in direct aid. While the whole world stands against Israel’s occupation, our government provides the political and diplomatic cover that allows Israel to flout international law. Specific Israeli policies sometimes draw mild criticisms from U.S. leaders, and those criticisms have grown stronger in recent days as Israel has ignored calls for a pullback of forces. But Israel can continue to ignore the international consensus -- and the U.N. Security Council resolutions calling on it to end the occupation -- because of U.S. support.

U.S. officials recently have distanced themselves from the extreme violence of the Sharon government and the Likud Party, but it is folly to think all would be fine if only a Labor Party government were in power. The differences between the two major parties in Israel are more of style than substance. Take the question of settlements in the occupied territories.

We are told repeatedly that Israel desperately wants peace. If that is true, why has the number of Israeli settlers living in the West Bank and Gaza almost doubled since the Oslo peace process began nearly a decade ago? Given that those settlements are one of the most serious obstacles to a peaceful solution, why would the Israeli governments -- Labor and Likud alike -- expand settlements in territory it illegally occupies during a so-called peace process?

The ultimate solution to the conflict in the Middle East is a regional peace conference under an international banner that takes seriously international law. There must be regional arms control, which should be part of a movement to reduce the insane levels of armaments globally (of which the United States is the leading salesperson). The most important contribution the United States could make is to stop blocking that process.

But right now, the United States can help defuse the immediate crisis by using the leverage its aid to Israel provides. We the American people should pressure our government to make a clear statement: Israel must not only end its current brutal offensive but also must take meaningful steps to end the occupation, and the United States must withdraw support from Israel until it agrees to do so.

If we fail to do that, then we cannot escape the knowledge that Americans are partly responsible for the next missile fired into a Palestinian town, the next shell lobbed into a Palestinian home, the next Israeli bullet that cuts down an innocent Palestinian.

--------

Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin, a member of the Nowar Collective, and author of the book Writing Dissent: Taking Radical Ideas from the Margins to the Mainstream. His pamphlet, “Citizens of the Empire,” is available at http://www.nowarcollective.com/citizensoftheempire.pdf.
Other writings are available online at http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/freelance.htm.
He can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu.

 

I am not so sure
Why he should do that maybe has more to it than first appears . Intelligent because of what?
Because he called me racist and stupid for raising those points. Of course not.
I've said nothing to justify that kind of response, as you guys point out.
Now I ask myself why is he is so defensive.?
Same reason as Thunderbolt I think .
He wants to stuff his view down everyone's throat. Dictate and force his venom into everyone he can?
In his haste he left out Nazi.

traderfut, You really shouldn't let your haste to type get in the way of a completed preconception.

Option777 is right. You have lost the argument Your hatred is exposed

ps.RS7 Teach me to type that fast

 

cut and paste AGAIN!! (and again,and again,and again,and again,and again............)

 

At least I am taking the time to find good sources and bring them to you. However, you are so blind you do not even want to read them.

Like last time we had a discussion and we had a private mail conversation. you were asserting one thing and I brought you the evidences. And then you stopped your agressive strategy of criticizing without bringing anything to the table.

Today, if you have somthing to say except accsuing me of pasting which is not true bring it to the table. Rs7 takes the time to debate. you only take the time to accuse.

Pathetic