Wife called just moments ago from Jerusalem. I asked her if she was aware of the letter sent to the Times by Einstein and the other prominent Jews in 1948 condemning Begin and his tactics. She really had no very informed rebuttal. She said she knew little about it...(it was quite a few years before she was born). But what she did say was that from what she remembers hearing about it, what happened was that the Israeli "terrorists" bombed the King David Hotel in retaliation for the public hanging of Israeli "freedom fighters" by the British. She was really pretty unclear about the exact circumstances, and like VVV said, she believes that there were shameful acts on both sides but it is time to go forward and let the dead rest. The world is a lot different now than 55 years ago. Also, she mentioned, that the palestinians were not the victims of the Begin gang, and therefore there is really no justification to be taken by the palestinians in this regard (vengeance for prior attacks 55 years ago). And the British, who were targeted by the Israelis have long since come to terms with the Israeli gov't. Further, she said that Einstein and the rest that signed that letter were far left wing spokespeople on the subject and not truly representative of the feelings of the majority of the jews in the US at the time (who obviously supported the fight for Israeli independence). Now, I know this sounds muddled. It sounded muddled to me tonight when she said her piece on the phone. But again, she did not deny the circumstances or the events referred to, nor did she blindly accept whatever was done on behalf of the Israeli cause. So essentially she said (without saying the words) that you can and sometimes must fight for what you believe is a just cause. Apparently there are major differences of opinion about what the definition of a "just cause" is. So if Traderfut believes the palestinians are fighting for a "just cause" then they are fighting a worthy fight. But the tactics of suicide bombers.....how can that ever be justified? The intentional murder of children and non-combatants. Women and babies. These tactics are NOT what were employed by the "terrorists" of the Begin "Freedom Party". So there are differences. Does this justify the acts of terror? In my opinion no. But for many, the ends will justify the means. And for them, the answer may well be "yes". One thing maybe worth considering. This is just a thought of my own. This is not from my more "informed" wife. Nor is it necessarily valid. Just something that sort of popped into my head just now: The "Freedom Party" achieved their goals. The palestinians have not. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki achieved their goals as well, which was to stop the prolonging of war and death. So in that line of thought, Begin and his gang did what worked. Arafat has been doing what hasn't worked for what? 40 years or so? So maybe evil leaders can be ranked according to effectiveness too. Let's say that Begin was the devil himself. At least he achieved his goals. Arafat hasn't achieved a single thing. So if you are looking to claim a "homeland", then maybe finding an evil but effective leader would make sense. Arafat is certainly "evil" but just as certainly ineffective. Get a thug to run the Palestinian Authority. But at least an effective thug. Then, hopefully peace can be realized and all the terror and bloodshed will have at least not been in total vain. As is the case now. Shalom, rs7
HIROSHIMA WHO DISAGREED WITH THE ATOMIC BOMBING? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what we read in the general media, it seems like almost everyone felt the atomic bombings of Japan were necessary. Aren't the people who disagree with those actions just trying to find fault with America? Positions listed refer to WWII positions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~DWIGHT EISENHOWER "...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent. "During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..." - Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380 In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson: "...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." - Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63 more at http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
Normally I stay away from the discussions involving politics and religion. When I think about Israel and Palestine I know should be thinking of: two wrongs donât make right. Instead, all I can think is: that feller Arafat is one fugly motherâ¦
One question to you. So basically Arafat is responsible of all the violent attacks on Israel, yet his buildings were destroyed and his police officers are killed day in day out. So when a white american kills 10 persons in the street we say this guy is insane and we don't blame Bush for that crimes. Which for me seems a rational attitude. Why then when it comes to Arafat we say this ugly criminal is ordering terrorist attacks while he always condemn the attacks and he has no power over the paletinian people who are "free to bomb themselves" because of despair. On the other hand you have an army heavily financed by the USA (more 30% of all the USA foreign aids go to Israel). An army that like today bombed a house killed 10 people and then said oh well we haven't found the terrorists. (and NO fuckin apology). An army of occupation that defends fanatc settlers and also an army that is untouchable and is not even risking the lives of its soldiers. by throwing missiles on innocent civilians. For me may be the palestinian suicide bombers are wrong. "Nothing justifies killings of innocent people" but when you see all that injustice and a country that is behaving like the Nazi regim I just wonder how you could think that way. Rs7, talked about gypsies concerning palestinain. I don't think my friend that when the Jews were prosecuted by the NAzis looked like Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt. Yo know the horror and the pictures. So talking about the palestinian and their poor condition would on the contrary be a shock for you and you would say to yourself even for the sake of a fucking land we should oppress those people not us not the Jews. Yesterday a Guy was on tv and he was Jew and he said Ok, I am Jew and I am for Israel That does not mean that I should accept their policy and their behaviour. (period) Blaming Araft is a way for the ISraelis to avoid responsibility for their own crimes no more.
I know about this. Nagazaki could have been avoided but it was for the example. Of course like Woody Allen said in one his movies history is made by the winners. So basically, all the atrocities commited by th US were heroic acts and we all know is is wrong. This is why I said to Rs7, that may be the USA delivered the white or the west from the nazism but yet half of the popumation of the world were rules by "Nazi regims". and the USA itself was not an example of great tolerance toward its minorities especially black people.
traderfut, Your thinking is so biased you can't debate. Your posts come in the same style as Thunderbolt's. Reading through the excellent responses made, to what I understand to be your main point , I see they are well balanced and take in the entrenched view you continuously put forward. Understandable and reasonable responses to your accusations about US 'great intolerance toward its minorities especially black people'. However, you blatantly ignore them. You ask for others views, they are put forward yet you still ignore them and return to calling everything and everyone Nazis. You have never tackled a single contention head on. Your persistent disregard to the particular replies and points raised from these, look simply like bigotry. Your reaction is to race on in a pathetic attempt to print more "US/Nazi" rubbish. Your arguments are made void by your insistence to entirely disregard other peoples views. Ironically there is a debate to be had on all these intensely deep felt beliefs and feelings, but people like you can't hold it because of your determination not to move from the extreme position, even though reasonable argument is offered against such immoderation. Your rationality displays itself as a type belonging to a big time loser. Pointless, circular, tedious, intolerant and prejudiced. Obviously that is what you have set yourself to be.
Apparently you just try to express your racist views by accusing me of being biased. Well, my answer, is yes I am biased and I know who is the oppressor. Very good articles were posted on the Nagazaki bombing that must have been avoided. Innocent people were killed man and the USA gave a sad image of what it calls civilization. Yet in history books all we have is we saved civilization???? what civilization???? You keep on saying you are civilized. Ok well you are not, at least not the 51% that "voted Bush". Civilization is not about money it's about culture tolerance and understanding of the others. Maybe you have the money but you hae nothing that for me represents the attribute of a civilized man. I have far more respect for a cuban that works hard to make a few cents and that is a victim of another unfair american embargo, than for a guy like you that say he is civlized tolerant and yet he pays taxes to kill million of innocent people and then go to Thailand and rape children and eat chips is usually fat and ugly and give lessons to the planet. May be it's not you but it's an image. Never ever give lessons to the whole world when you among you own population many people behave like savages and have the most total disprespect for people of planet earth. This is what I tried to point out to Rs7. It's easy to say look if we were not here, then you would speak german. But what you forgot is that the second world war is nothing for the population of the world... Every year you have a second world war. But may be that's not important, these are just arabs, black or japs... Well Enough is enough.
Why the USA that is the saviour of humanity never ever condemned Apartheid??????? Tell me WHY?????? Why did they continue to trade with south africa and yet the whole world was protesting about that so incredible injustice. A bunch of assholes exploiting and stealing the resources of black people and putting them in ghettoes ???? May be for you that's not Nazism may be for you black people are inferior and should not be respected. Well for me everything is clear. The USA never gave a fuck for civilization. Going to Europe was done in order to defend its interests. Even some americans were very close to the Nazi regims and I think that 90% of the white in the south certainly shared their ideas. Till the sixties Slavery was still accepted and tolerated in the USA. And their faith was real sad. I have many friends black and I can tell you they still have hatred for white people. And you know what I understand them. "Slavery lasted 300 fucking years. Nazism 10 years at most. Not even comparable..." So when you talk about civilization it's good to criticize oneself before criticizing the others.
Anyone who disagrees with you is a racist? Then call me a racist. What your narrow mind fails to understand, is that we already know what you are going to say even before you say it. You are just quoting chapter and verse, rather than truly thinking through the issues and looking at all sides. That is the nature of extremists. They only see one point of view, and do nothing in any sense evaluate their own reasoning process and conclusions. Their form of argumentation is to conclude, then reason to rationalizations, rather than reason to conclusion. They are unable to see points of view different from their own, due to severe bias, usually born out of some very painful experience in their past. Sorry for all your pain, but that is life. Get over it. Move forward. Suggest positive solutions. You sound like a broken record...... People tune out broken records. They stop listening. You sound like a dittohead, just a different wing of an extemist bird. When you see the entire world in only black and white, it is proof of a lack of grey matter.
Is it Stu bis. You are as stupid as him. Again yopu bring nothing to the table you accuse. And when you see me attacking then you say to yourselves Oh my god he is closed minded. The problem is that all my thread bring proves evidence while all you bring are accusations. and based on what on your racist approach of the world. You hate arabs, you hate blacks you hate asians. Like for the black people you did terrible things to them during 3 centuries and I don't think that you could even imagine what they endured yet you speak of being open minded and civilized. Come one Say that to other stupid people like you