Don't you just love the French?

Here is my point exactly. I say you use incidents from hundred of years ago, and then you say "no..not talking hundreds of years". But then in the very next paragraph, you bring up the inquisition. I don't think you are talking about the inquisition of the late 1980's when they were trying to track down disco musicians and send them into exile So the other inquisition I know about was a little further back.

Now what does the "discrimination against black people and the colonization of man countries" in the sixties have to do with Israel? Or the Jewish quest for a secure homeland?

But the bottom line here is that I totally AGREE with you that the Muslim people are NOT the universal enemy of western society or of Israel specifically. obviously the extremist do NOT represent the vast majority of peace loving Muslims. Is there a danger to the easily misinterpreted (or is it correctly interpreted) teachings of the Koran? Well you and Daniel M have debated this at great length, and still, it is way over my head to try and figure out what exactly is meant by "kill the infidels". Does this mean something other than what the words say? certainly there are many contradictions in religious teachings. "An eye for an eye" vs. "turn the other cheek" stands out as an obvious one. So, I have no clue how to interpret religious contradictions. Not my field of expertise (not by a very long shot).

But still, it seems to me that the Palestinian issue is not about Muslims fighting Jews because of religious beliefs or differences. It seems like just a good old fashioned land war. And so why can't there be an agreement? What is wrong with the Camp David Accord.

The Western Wall has been desecrated by Palestinian terrorists. The Church of the Nativity was held under siege by Palestinian terrorists. The dome of the rock has been protected by Israeli troops. So tell me about the morality of the Palestinian terrorists. Tell me how they cannot be ashamed to try and claim themselves as "victims". This is not about religion. This is not about ancient territorial claims (as much as that tactic has been tried to be exploited). This is really about a bunch of people that would simply rather "reclaim" the barren land they fled after it was turned into an oasis in the desert by hard working industrious and educationally driven settlers.

If these Palestinians spend a bit more effort on education than on suicide tactics and terrorist training, their plight would be quite different. I am sorry. I know this sounds harsh. But I have seen these little palestinians roaming he streets trying to hustle up a few dollars by begging and stealing and intimidation. Would their time not be better spent getting an education? Well obviously the culture does not encourage this as it should. And this leads to the deteriorization of an culture. Learn and go forward....advance your cause by advancing your position in society. Or, like the Gypsies, define who your "marks" are, your enemies, and strive to keep the social advancement at zero. To me, it seems like the Gypsies and the Palestinians have much in common. No desire to go forward.

Clearly there are exceptions. And this approach is NOT one that is taken by the Arab world in general. Or at least not the few who are prosperous enough to further their educations and open their minds to the possibility of peaceful coexistence. It is really so sad that the lack of democracy in the middle east restricts so greatly those who have the opportunities to advance. So the leaders, the royals, and the minor amount of well heeled non royal arabs...all those who have no material need get exposure and opportunity to advance in their quest for knowledge and modernization are sadly very few in number relative to the entire population of the arab world in general. Traderfut...you of all of us should be able to explain this clearly, for obviously you are an enlightened and prosperous example who can explain to the rest of us why this situation exists as it does. Is education truly reserved for the privileged only? What gives?. Is it really a part of the culture to keep the masses uneducated? I know there are nomadic arabs that live similarly to the gypsies.. But where do the Palestinians fit in here?

Peace,
rs7

 

ahem, i'm not going to get sidetracked into a discussion on religion or culture, thank you very much, but isn't that part about education a bit like marie antoinette stating that they should eat cake if they don't have bread, and we all know what happened to her, hmm.

anyway, jokes aside, you really do not need religion or culture or what not to get some pretty good strife going, it's only human nature if left unchecked, and religion etc merely provides the mantle purporting to offer justification where none exists.

there is a well known sociological phenomenon that if you isolate an extremely homogenous group on an island it's only a question of time until they divide into at least two groups that will start viewing the respective other group as the enemy, and start inventing all kinds of reasons post facto as to why they must be fought at all costs. eventually that turns into a status quo left unchallenged and unquestioned by the majority, and is viewed as a "fact" of life.

whereas of course it's nothing of the sort.

cheers

 

exactly. that, and an unwilligness bordering on the asinine to accept the simple fact that neither side will disappear from the face of this earth.

maybe this, which is part and parcel of the problem on both sides, sheds some light from a practical perspective:

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

— Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist
in an August 1943 article titled “Terror”, written for Hazit
the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to.

=================================
=================================




Albert Einstein
Condemns Israeli Nazis



Prominent Jews’ December, 1948 Letter To New York Times


Letters to the New York Times December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

 

VVV,

that is a great article I came through once over the internet.
It shows how the state of Israel was created. Many jews were opposed to its creation at the beginning.

Thanks you for posting it. Very few people knwo about that unfortunately. BUt that should be read and it will enable a lot of people to understand who started all that killings.

TF

 

Rs7,
Quite chocking assertion. So basically palestinian are gypsies. Aren't you ashamed to say that. Are you a real man with children.

The palestinian universities were bombarded, the schools are bombarded, the palestinian economy does not exist.

Education is good it is very good and this is why not just a few but thousands of arab students and scientists are in many western universities. Some of the finest brains of the planet are Arab. May be you don't know it but open your mind a little bit.

And have a look at the mathematics laboratories even in the US.
Look at MIRC that is used by everybody it has been developed by a palestinian.

Now my point is, how can you say to the palestinian to spend more on education if all their schools or universities ae destroyed by Israel. Frankly my friend you disappoint me. And you show me once again how biased you are.

And when you talk about culture. Do you know what the Nazis used to say about the jews. So please stop saying things you don't understand.

Take anybody from a ghetto give him education and put him in a rich family and he will succeed. Put a prince in a ghetto and the probabilities are very low he will succeed. It has nothing to do with culture but with conditions. If you talk about culture then you are really blind.

 

i'd just hope that the israelis and palestinians would both - at the current stage - start spending less time looking backward and figuring out who did what when, at some stage bygones will have to be bygones if there is ever to be any hope. instead they should both spend their time looking into the future and showing some real commitment to doing sthg worthwhile for their peoples by working hard for a real negotiated settlement, even though that is much harder to do than taking the easy way out by constantly blaming "the other side" and maintaining the pretense, for that is all it is, that violence will magically solve the problem one day, even though it has done anything but during the last 5 or so decades.

the solution is simple, needing little more than good will and common sense, which of course is by no means to say that it will be easy.

however, the european union is proof that it can be done, after centuries of strife and wars.

also the irish and the brits have managed to somehow improve things just a little bit, as compared to a mere 10 or 20 years ago, coming out of a quagmire that lasted almost an entire century, hmm.

where there is hope, things can change to the better.

 

The website of a guy that could have been a terrorist but had the chance to have an education

http://www.mirc.com/khaled/about.html


The Lover

Her eyes and the tattoo on her hands are Palestinian,

Her name, Palestinian,

Her dreams and sorrow, Palestinian,

Her kerchief, her feet and body, Palestinian,

Her words and her silence, Palestinian,

Her voice, Palestinian,

Her birth and her death, Palestinian.


- Mahmoud Darwish

 

I weep for Palestine.

Boo hoo hoo hoo.

Terrorist state, pure and simple.

 

Quote from traderfut2000:

Rs7,
Quite chocking assertion. So basically palestinian are gypsies. Aren't you ashamed to say that. Are you a real man with children.
No, TF, I did not mean to imply that palestinians are gypsies. I was asking a question really. Having been accosted in the streets by palestinian children and young adults and being begged (relentlessly) for money seemed reminiscentof the kind of behavior I have experienced by gypsies in other parts of the world. I know almost nothing about gypsie culture. What little I know just leads me to believe that they do NOT believe in education in the traditional sense. And that it is acceptable to them to cheat and steal from any non-gypsies. Now are the Palestinians like this? Obviously not, but perhaps more so than the average non-palestinian arab. I cannot judge other than by my own limited experience. So in Israel, I was panhandled a lot. Tell me why these children were not in school. And don't tell me it was because their schools were destroyed by Israeli troops. This was 3 and 4 years ago when peace seemed at hand. And it was safe to go virtually anywhere in Israel (as opposed to now, where it is UNSAFE to go anywhere).


Education is good it is very good and this is why not just a few but thousands of arab students and scientists are in many western universities. Some of the finest brains of the planet are Arab. May be you don't know it but open your mind a little bit.
Truly, there are many Islamic and Arab students in western universities. And obviously many of them are very bright and will someday contribute greatly to the world. I just wonder what percentage of these students are NOT from the most upper class families. For each arab student studying in western universities, how many of their generation are training with wooden sticks and other crude weapons to fight the infidels (whoever and wherever they are). I understand the poverty is a major factor. This is my whole point. Why does, for example, the Saudi Royal family have so much, and the people so little. Saddam Heussein has over 20 Palaces in Bahgdad and the people have so little. Why is there (seemingly) no middle class in most of the arabic middle east? There are the rich and the poor. Not much in between. How is this condoned, and who is condoning it? What chance does the kid born into a poverty stricken arab family have of attaining an education and a decent life? I am truly just ASKING. I can only judge by appearances. Not by true knowledge. So, TF, enlighten me.

take anybody from a ghetto give him education and put him in a rich family and he will succeed. Put a prince in a ghetto and the probabilities are very low he will succeed. It has nothing to do with culture but with conditions. If you talk about culture then you are really blind.
Ok, agreed. But we know that doesn't happen. So what does happen in real life? Explain the breeding grounds of terrorism. Are they not the poor and hopeless? Can't they be given opportunities to climb out of despair? Or is that not a part of the culture? Again, I am truly just asking. I don't wish to be "blind". I seek only the truth and the opinions of those more informed than me. Like yourself. Thanks TF!

As one aside. I have a friend that just returned from Paris. She said that somewhere (I think outside the Louvre..not exactly sure, but somewhere populated by tourists), that they have tapes playing over loud speakers on th sidewalks warning the tourists to avoid the (arab) panhandlers and that it is not safe to stop and engage them in conversation. Is this true? If so, then why?

Peace,
rs7

 

Very interesting. I will have to print this out and ask my wife for her explanation or rationalization on this. She is quite involved in American/Israeli affairs. She is actually in Israel now (hence the heavy posting by me for the past several days). But I will be interested to know her reaction. (though I am willing to bet she has some pre-rehearsed response....).

I will keep you posted as to what she says. I know she will call me later, but I doubt she will have the patience to let me read it to her over the phone. Coming back here on Sunday. Should be interesting.

She is the expert, I am the student (like I am of TF on the other side.....just that TF does less for me, so I pay more attention to the blonde female teacher with the great smile)

Peace,
rs7