The thing about Christianity or religion imo, is its very similar to trading. There is not one way. There is not a one set of set down rules one must apply in all circumstances (think different countries - they have different customs and different values which are/aren't acceptable. You will have your (trading or religous) beliefs and I'll have mine. You can't instruct me how to trade and vice versa as our minds are wired differently. I don't believe in the biblical version of God, my belief is every atom is a living thing and the culmination of that is 'living energy', that is God. The bible is a great book, great teachings, use it like a trading handbook, take the bits you want and apply it to your life, discard the rest as remember, the bible was written by imperfect mankind (people).
There is no 'God' to obey, pure bs. There are universal rules to obey. Like electricity, there are rules to electricity, if you don't or can't obey them, you may get a tingle, you may get pain. The same electricity can work for you or against you. One obeys rules to improve themselves, to get ahead, to make life better. Obeying rules because a stupid god figure belief (looking down with stern judgement) is laughable, immature, naive, prehistoric caveman thinking. A real 'God' is forever evolving, forever improving, forever growing, He's not a figure who wants to whack you into submission.
So church people who believe in a religous god are always gonna derail because they operate with incorrect motives, like a faulty trading system, it will produce negative surprises.
Johnnyrock said: "My question remains. Why should the wife obey the husband? Without pointing to a scripture to make your point, why - logically - does the same New Testament you are quoting say the woman should OBEY? I think you are asking if I can explain why a woman should OBEY her husband apart from a scriptural reason. From logic only I would offer these reasons: In order to preserve harmonious relationships and in order to accomplish a purpose, there are, in most societies, established orders of authority. Examples: Armed forces operate using a chain of command. Managers direct workers to do specific tasks and follow company rules. Schools use teachers to provide instruction and enforce rules. Friendships operate differently in that there is (should be) mutual respect. But even in a friendship, in order to do anything, there must be agreement. Without the need for “obedience” a friendship actually still performs the principle of mutual submission. Simply put, one must agree to do the suggestion of another in order to do accomplish anything. Example: One friend wants to meet at the gym. The other friend either agrees to go or doesn’t. But that agreement or disagreement is very similar to the principle of “obedience" if it is thought of in the terms of simply doing what someone else wants you to do. From a logical perspective it makes sense that in order to operate smoothly, within the family structure there should also be a “chain of command.” Now I will attempt to use Scripture to answer your question. The subject of obedience is a theme of the Bible from the very beginning. God gave a command to our first parents, Adam and Eve, and they did not obey Him. One of the punishments resulting from their disobedience was that God told the woman that her husband would “rule over her.” There are a couple points to make about this. This instruction was never given to the man. In other words, the man has NOT been commanded to rule over his wife. It came as a result of their disobedience. It was not God’s original design of marriage for a man to rule over his wife. The same passage alludes to the woman wanting to rule over the man. To sum it all up, husbands and wives are going to have struggles with power control in marriage. Just like every other area of life, what was originally created good and perfect has now been affected by the unpleasant results of sin. Johnnyrock wrote: "Love does not require obedience. Abusive husbands require obedience." First of all, I do agree with you that “abusive husbands require obedience.” I do not see anywhere in scripture where a husband is to enforce his wife’s obedience. In fact, one passage that instructs wives to submit to their husbands precedes that verse by telling all believers to submit to each other. 21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Ephesians 5:21, 22 How do people mutually submit to one another? They get along by considering others' needs before their own. This isn’t a command to have disorder and chaos within a church with everybody bossing everybody else around. In the same way, there is nothing in Scripture telling husbands to be tyrannical in their leadership. Instead, there are many Scriptures teaching against domineering behavior. Here are a few: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her Eph 5:25 Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you. Eph 4:32 Pastors were instructed, “Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you…..not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.” 1 Peter 5:3 "In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' Hosea 2:16 The preceding verse gives us the example of God in the rule of a Husband to Israel and He is a husband of tenderness, not a harsh master. The Pulpit Commentary puts it this way: “The name by which Israel shall address her beloved shall be henceforth Ishi, not Baali; that is, a term of tender affection, not of stern authority.” https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hosea/2-16.htm And one last point to make: Being under an authority figure does not take away the value of a person. In fact, even within the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit the principles of mutual submission are displayed. The Father sent His Son and the Son submitted to His Father’s will in going to the cross for us. I glorified You on the earth, having completed the work that You have given Me that I should do. And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed. John 17:4
Without using scripture, why should the husband obey the wife? Chain of command my man. So if it's just about order, logically a husband should obey his wife. It's really ridiculous that you can't see the correlation between spousal abuse and a misogynistic spiritual path that devalues women.
Not ridiculous at all. I am in circles where very happy and peacful families exist because of mutual respect, mutual submission--with the husband as primary leader--and self sacrificing love. When each partner is concerned more with their spouses well being than their own, and neither is allowing selfishness to control them, there is a lot of happiness in the relationship. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Philippians 2:4 ESV Remember, I agreed with you that abusive husbands demand obedience. I am against any form of domestic abuse, verbal or physical or emotional. The point I am trying to make is that having order in the home, when it is done as taught in the Scriptures, when both partners are truly loving each other unselfishly and "being kind to each other, tenderhearted," will not lead to abuse. You are confusing having order in the home, and God-designed roles, with those who are behaving contrary to the Biblical manner. I agree with you that many people in this world are taking the one teaching on submission and not listening to the whole counsel of the Word of God. Any type of domineering behavior is wrong, and it is also contrary to Scripture.
%% LOL On a more serious note, some liberal loons pretend if someone spanks kids, or a principal paddles kids for misbehavior, that is child abuse. AND that is one of the major reasons so few have any kind of discipline @ all. Thank God my banker dad + principal were not liberal loons + helped with discipline..............................................................................................