Does Israel have right to exist in current form?

OhI don't hate Israel or its people. I hate the people who tear up the constitution. Is it wrong to hate those evildoers? Do you want that I cower in the glare of my TV and dance around calling for the deaths of dark skinned people 1/2 a world away? Would that make me brave and a liberator?

Example, the US directly funds terror, torture and genocide, in places like Israel and Egypt. It's a sick death cult.

Remember, people never want war - they must be goaded into it and brainwashed into doing the most evil and vile actions.

Tell me, in FIFTY YEARS Israel hs failed to spread democracy and peace in the middle east. BUT THAT WAS NEVER THE GOAL. Same as the US has unleashed the evil madness of war and WMD onto a civillian population (again) in Iraq, while our propaganda box/TV tells us it's ok.

Repeat after me: PEACE IS NOT THE GOAL! GENOGIDE IS.


Outsourcing Torture

By Chris Hedges

10/15/07 "Truthdig" -- - - The Bush administration has called for the respect of human rights in Burma, a pretty safe piece of posturing, but it remains silent as Egypt’s dictator, Gen. Hosni Mubarak , unleashes the largest crackdown on public opposition in over a decade. Our moral indignation over the shooting of monks masks the incestuous and growing alliance we have built in the so-called war on terror with some of the world’s most venal dictatorships.

Mubarak, who has ruled Egypt for 26 years and is grooming his son, Gamal, to succeed him, can torture and “disappear” dissidents—such as the Egyptian journalist Reda Hilal, who vanished four years ago—without American censure because he does the dirty work for us on those we “disappear.” The extraordinary-rendition program, which sees the United States kidnap and detain terrorist suspects in secret prisons around the world, fits neatly with the Egyptian regime’s contempt for due process. Those rounded up by American or Egyptian security agents are never granted legal rights. The abductors are often hooded or masked. If the captors are American the suspects are spirited onto a Gulfstream V jet registered to a series of dummy American corporations, such as Bayard Foreign Marketing of Portland, Ore., and whisked to Egypt or perhaps Morocco or Jordan. When these suspects arrive in Cairo they vanish into black holes as swiftly as dissident Egyptians. It is the same dirty and seamless process.

We have nothing to say to Mubarak. He is us. The general intelligence directorate in Lazoughli and in Mulhaq al-Mazra prison in Cairo allegedly holds many of our own detained and “disappeared.” The more savage the torture techniques of the Mubarak regime the faster the prisoners we smuggle into Egypt from Afghanistan and Iraq are broken down. The screams of Egyptians, Iraqis, Pakistanis and Afghans mingle in these prison cells to condemn us all.

We know little about what goes on in the black holes the CIA has set up in Egypt. But snapshots leak out. Ibn-al Shaykh al-Libi, who was captured by U.S. forces in late 2001, was an al-Qaida camp commander. He was taken to a prison in Cairo where he was repeatedly tortured by Egyptian officials. The Egyptian interrogators told the CIA that he had confirmed a relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. The tidbit, used by then U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in his United Nations speech, turned out to be false. Victims usually will say anything to make severe torture stop. Al-Libi was eventually returned to Afghanistan, although he has again disappeared.
Mamduh Habib, an Egyptian-born citizen of Australia, was apprehended in October 2001 in Pakistan, where, his family says, he was touring religious schools. A Pentagon spokesman claimed that Habib spent most of his time in Afghanistan and was “either supporting hostile forces or on the battlefield fighting illegally against the U.S.”

Habib was released a few days after The Washington Post published an article on his case. He said he was first interrogated and brutalized for three weeks in Islamabad. His interrogators spoke English with American accents. He was then bustled into a jumpsuit, his eyes were covered with opaque goggles and he was flown on a small jet to Egypt. There he was held and interrogated for six months, according to Joseph Margulies, a lawyer affiliated with the MacArthur Justice Center at the University of Chicago Law School, which is representing Habib,.

Habib claims he was beaten frequently with blunt instruments, including an object that he likened to an “electric prod.” He was told that if he did not confess to belonging to al-Qaida he would be anally raped by specially trained dogs. Habib said he was returned to U.S. custody after his stint in an Egyptian prison and flown to Bagram air base, in Afghanistan, and then to Guantanamo Bay, where he was kept until his release.

Al-Libi and Habib are but two cases. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands more. These accounts of American-sponsored torture in Egyptian prisons are not new. They hardly make news. But the close cooperation between Egyptian and American security officials represents a frightening melding of despotisms, an international cabal of state-sponsored brutality and abuse. It does away with the concept of law and human rights. It mocks international protocols and treaties. It permits the despotic states we support, such as Egypt, to veer away from democratic structures and propagate, with our assistance, a more ruthless tyranny and brutality. It enrages and finally empowers those who oppose us to engage in the same behavior. It is dividing the world into competing spheres of intolerance. In this new world order there is nothing left to appeal to other than the mercy of someone standing over you with an electric prod.

Mubarak has in the past few weeks decided to shut down the last remnants of opposition. He has sent in riot police to arrest dozens of striking labor leaders, rounded up more than a thousand members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the largest opposition group, and tossed seven journalists into prison. The charges against the journalists range from misquoting Egypt’s justice minister to spreading rumors about the health of Mubarak to defaming his designated heir, Gamal. The detainees, as usual, complain of torture and beatings. And persistent rumors of death squads, bolstered by the “disappearance” of some of the regime’s most outspoken critics, have turned Egypt into a state that has mastered the art of internal and external extraordinary rendition.

The few lonely Egyptian voices and institutions that dared to speak out against the mounting repression have been silenced, including the Association for Human Rights and Legal Aid, which was shut down by the government last month. The government also recently arrested two political activists—Mohammed al-Dereini and Ahmed Mohammed Sobh, both members of Egypt’s tiny Shiite minority—after the men publicized testimonies from prisoners detailing torture in the Egyptian prison system. Egypt’s most prominent dissident, the sociologist Saad Edin Ibrahim, is in exile, too frightened to go home and repeat his own brutal experience in an Egyptian prison.

The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights has confirmed more than 500 cases of police abuse since 1993, including 167 deaths—three of which took place this year—that the group “strongly suspects were the result of torture and mistreatment.” There are now 80,000 political prisoners held in Egyptian prisons. The annual budget for internal security was $1.5 billion in 2006, more than the entire national budget for health care, and the security police forces comprise 1.4 million members, nearly four times the number of the Egyptian army.

The United States has subsidized Egypt’s armed forces with over $38 billion in aid. Egypt receives about $2 billion annually—$1.3 billion in foreign military financing and about $815 million in economic and support fund assistance—making it the second largest regular recipient of conventional U.S. military and economic aid, after Israel.

We have nothing left to say to the Mubarak regime. The torture practiced in Egypt is the torture we employ for our own ends. The cries that rise up from these fetid cells in Egypt condemn not only the Mubarak dictatorship but the moral rot that has beset the American state.

We are losing the war in Iraq. We are an isolated and reviled nation. We are pitiless to others weaker than ourselves. We have lost sight of our democratic ideals. Thucydides wrote of Athens’ expanding empire and how this empire led it to become a tyrant abroad and then a tyrant at home. The tyranny Athens imposed on others, it finally imposed on itself. If we do not confront our hubris and the lies we tell to justify the killing and mask the destruction carried out in our name in Iraq, if we do not grasp the moral corrosiveness of empire and occupation, if we continue to allow force and violence to be our primary form of communication, if we do not remove from power our flag-waving, cross-bearing versions of the Taliban, the despotism we empower abroad will become the despotism we soon experience at home.

Chris Hedges is former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times and author of the bestseller “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” reports on Bush’s plan for Iran, and how a callous war, conceived by zealots, will lead to a disaster of biblical proportions.

 

there is apartheid in israel. it's being committed by the israeli government who are evicting jews from their homes.
the gaza massacre couple of years back evicted 8000 jews from their homes whom were living there for past 30 years. they handed it over to a terrorist regime calling themselves "palestnians". these people ARE NOT palestinians.

Ok everyone! lets just deal with the truth! Even a fool should know that the most important event in all of Jewish history was the migration out of Egypt at or around 1250 BCE! It gave them an identity, a nation & a founder! Even the first line of Exodus will PROVE the establishment of ISRAEL at this time! Fair enough everyone?

Now to the " Palestinians." The name " Palestine " was created & first used by the Roman emperor Hadrian at or around 132 AD! Any history book on the Mid East, even by non Jewish authors or sources will verify this! The name was chosen to insult the Jews for their resistance to the might of Rome during the Masada & Bar-Kochbah revolts to preserve their freedom! So everyone, can we all now agree that the first " Palestinians "---- WERE JEWS!

So then, from where, when & why did todays Palestinians arrive in the West Bank & Gaza where they still reside? Reasonable question? Todays Palestinians were driven out of most Arab nations for their criminal, terrorist acts against their govts, led by none other than ---- Yasssar Arafat! Don't believe me? Fine! you may choose to remain ignorant or just look up Black September when King Hussein of Jordan had to mass murder over 10,000 Arafat led
Palestinians for their constant seiges to protect his country!

During the 67 Arab, Israeli wars, Israel conquered Jordan! After the wars, Israel offered to return the West Bank & Gaza back to Jordan but the Jordanian govt. refused, as it would bring back the Palestinians! How relieved they were to just dump them on Israel to deal with! NOW THEY OCCUPY ISRAELS LAND! So what does Israel do? THEY MAKE PEACE OFFERINGS TO THE PALESTINIANS! Is there ANYONE who can deny this or the fact that NEVER has a single
Arab nation even cared or dared to treat the Palestinians with such human diplomacy?


We need to stop the insanity. for 1000's of years the jewish nation has lived through many conquerers. persian,syrian,greek,babylonian,egyptian,roman,islamic and british empires yet they still prevailed, part of them lived through the hell and others migrated back and forth between the conquests. now israel has the power to expell these murderes and retain it's land. instead of fighting wars and the outcome being determined by how powerful the other army is, this is a political war. the travesty is not only does israel have to give away it's land because of pressure from the international community, but because it is the people. the secularists don't care about other israeli's and actually show contempt for them. a poll was taken that most israelis wanted the gaza withdrawel. why? not that they give a damn about the "palestianians" (jordanian refugee thugs). the residents of gaza, israel were orthodox jews. Israel is not loosing to a more powerful enemy this time. it is losing a political war.
Handing over land to the enemy is a travesty as it is. what's more important it should be in the interest of all israelis that israel is only the size of new jersey. Yet israel is expanding rapidly. there are many immigrants coming to israel and israel is small enough. whether you are orthodox, liberal, conservative, reformed it should be in your best interest to retain the land you have, so israel can expand it's growth and prosper. if israel is shrinking, so will it's future.

so the subject of "apartheid" is the show on the other foot. it is apartheid again jews and that has to be stopped.

 

I'm confused, Is it Israel's duty to bring peace to the middle east?

The truth is that the so called fight over Israel is the only thing that is keeping the relative peace in the arab world. You Israel "haters" are so convoluted that you actually believe that the rest of the arab world is peaceful. If it wasn't for Israel being a cause than you would be raising a lot less terrorist dollars for your anti Israel and USA campaigns. You shouldn't want this to end. And I don't think that many other arab nations want it to end either. They are unfortunately happy that the palestinian problem is Israels and not theirs. (look at Jordan)

 

It's Israel's wish to live in peace with its neighbors. Of course because Israel wants peace Israel's neighbors who don't keep blackmailing Israel demanding absurd and unrealistic concessions just to engage in a peace process.

The so-called Palestinian supporters in the Middle East, in the world and on this site could not care less about the plight of the palestinian people, human rights, international laws, peace in the middle east and similar nonsense. Well none of them gives a damn about these issues when they happen in arab countries, Africa, Burma or anywhere else in the world so the inevitable conclusion is that this is not what it's all about. Instead they cynically use these causes to advance their agenda which is quite simple and obvious - the destruction of Israel as a jewish state.

 

Oh dear, seems the 'democracy' is not so - hardly a religion of peace.

this is hardly new news, just can't sit still in the face of these extremist evil.

This has been going on for 50 YEARS while the world turns a blind eye, this is Isre-hell. THIS is the #1 threat to our freedoms.

I guess their g-d approves of destroying another human being and spreading terror?

------------------------

Israel shaken by troops' tales of brutality against Palestinians


A psychologist blames assaults on civilians in the 1990s on soldiers' bad training, boredom and poor supervision

Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Sunday October 21, 2007
The Observer


A study by an Israeli psychologist into the violent behaviour of the country's soldiers is provoking bitter controversy and has awakened urgent questions about the way the army conducts itself in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Nufar Yishai-Karin, a clinical psychologist at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, interviewed 21 Israeli soldiers and heard confessions of frequent brutal assaults against Palestinians, aggravated by poor training and discipline. In her recently published report, co-authored by Professor Yoel Elizur, Yishai-Karin details a series of violent incidents, including the beating of a four-year-old boy by an officer.

The report, although dealing with the experience of soldiers in the 1990s, has triggered an impassioned debate in Israel, where it was published in an abbreviated form in the newspaper Haaretz last month. According to Yishai Karin: 'At one point or another of their service, the majority of the interviewees enjoyed violence. They enjoyed the violence because it broke the routine and they liked the destruction and the chaos. They also enjoyed the feeling of power in the violence and the sense of danger.'

In the words of one soldier: 'The truth? When there is chaos, I like it. That's when I enjoy it. It's like a drug. If I don't go into Rafah, and if there isn't some kind of riot once in some weeks, I go nuts.'

Another explained: 'The most important thing is that it removes the burden of the law from you. You feel that you are the law. You are the law. You are the one who decides... As though from the moment you leave the place that is called Eretz Yisrael [the Land of Israel] and go through the Erez checkpoint into the Gaza Strip, you are the law. You are God.'

The soldiers described dozens of incidents of extreme violence. One recalled an incident when a Palestinian was shot for no reason and left on the street. 'We were in a weapons carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street and, just like that, for no reason - he didn't throw a stone, did nothing - bang, a bullet in the stomach, he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the pavement and we keep going, apathetic. No one gave him a second look,' he said.

The soldiers developed a mentality in which they would use physical violence to deter Palestinians from abusing them. One described beating women. 'With women I have no problem. With women, one threw a clog at me and I kicked her here [pointing to the crotch], I broke everything there. She can't have children. Next time she won't throw clogs at me. When one of them [a woman] spat at me, I gave her the rifle butt in the face. She doesn't have what to spit with any more.'

Yishai-Karin found that the soldiers were exposed to violence against Palestinians from as early as their first weeks of basic training. On one occasion, the soldiers were escorting some arrested Palestinians. The arrested men were made to sit on the floor of the bus. They had been taken from their beds and were barely clothed, even though the temperature was below zero. The new recruits trampled on the Palestinians and then proceeded to beat them for the whole of the journey. They opened the bus windows and poured water on the arrested men.

The disclosure of the report in the Israeli media has occasioned a remarkable response. In letters responding to the recollections, writers have focused on both the present and past experience of Israeli soldiers to ask troubling questions that have probed the legitimacy of the actions of the Israeli Defence Forces.

The study and the reactions to it have marked a sharp change in the way Israelis regard their period of military service - particularly in the occupied territories - which has been reflected in the increasing levels of conscientious objection and draft-dodging.

The debate has contrasted sharply with an Israeli army where new recruits are taught that they are joining 'the most ethical army in the world' - a refrain that is echoed throughout Israeli society. In its doctrine, published on its website, the Israeli army emphasises human dignity. 'The Israeli army and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position.'

However, the Israeli army, like other armies, has found it difficult to maintain these values beyond the classroom. The first intifada, which began in 1987, before the wave of suicide bombings, was markedly different to the violence of the second intifada, and its main events were popular demonstrations with stone-throwing.

Yishai-Karin, in an interview with Haaretz, described how her research came out of her own experience as a soldier at an army base in Rafah in the Gaza Strip. She interviewed 18 ordinary soldiers and three officers whom she had served with in Gaza. The soldiers described how the violence was encouraged by some commanders. One soldier recalled: 'After two months in Rafah, a [new] commanding officer arrived... So we do a first patrol with him. It's 6am, Rafah is under curfew, there isn't so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers.

'He grabbed the boy. I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock...

'The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

Yishai-Karin concluded that the main reason for the soldiers' violence was a lack of training. She found that the soldiers did not know what was expected of them and therefore were free to develop their own way of behaviour. The longer a unit was left in the field, the more violent it became. The Israeli soldiers, she concluded, had a level of violence which is universal across all nations and cultures. If they are allowed to operate in difficult circumstances, such as in Gaza and the West Bank, without training and proper supervision, the violence is bound to come out.

A spokeswoman for the Israeli army said that, if a soldier deviates from the army's norms, they could be investigated by the military police or face criminal investigation.

She said: 'It should be noted that since the events described in Nufar Yishai-Karin's research the number of ethical violations by IDF soldiers involving the Palestinian population has consistently dropped. This trend has continued in the last few years.'

 

the only terror is jews being attacked by you arabs that call yourself "palestinians" you control 22 countries spanning the entire middle east, while you want to destroy a postage stamp sized country only 300 kilometers across.
you should also mention the atrocities of arabs against jews that were and are living in middle eastern countries. many jews have been murdered and exiled who have been living in iran, iraq, morocco and other muslim countries. of course you wont talk about this because you are an anti semite.
why don't stop the myth. you may as well call yourself henry the 8th or something. you are "Palestinians" like i am Madagascan marsupial.
All those UN resolutions you listed or a joke. every one of those "resolutions" were broken by the arabs when they declared war or attacked israelis with suicide bombs. the UN stands for the united nazis. whenever israel gets attack and defends itself they get "condemned". I have no idea what the hell the UN is doing in the united states. Whats more deplorable is i live in NY and thats where they house it. IT is shameful to be in the same city with such a corrupt hateful dangerous anti semetic organization. that building should be torn down. let them go to the hague or better yet paris.
so in conclusion if you want a "palestinian" state you already have one. it is in the country of your origin. jordan. go back where you came from.

 

Yawn, Blah, blah, blah wael, the same old litany of the same old bogus complaints. I already told you that you're a broken record, didn't I.


PS don't forget who you really are. You're a Yemeni (according to your own admission). Your land is 1000s of miles away, you don't belong in the Holy Land.

And the arabs do have 22 countries and 99.8% of the Middle East. Of course they've turned them into a pile of shit, 22 huge fundamentalist, poor, oppressed, medieval shitholes. And Israel occupying 0.2% of the Middle East - progressive, democratic free flourishing oasis in the desert. DEAL WITH IT.

 

And the palestinians do already have their country, it's called Jordan, the original british mandate PALESTINE included the territory of both Jordan and Israel. Two states for two peoples already exist.

 

This makes sense and yet no Muslim's willing to address it with logic, and are all too much of pussies to question the blind beliefs they were passed down on.