What actually is fate? Something god willed? In the event you recognise time is not 100% linear, im sure you'd question the notion of fate . Random ignorant chance, basically, is the same thing.
MESSIANIC VERSES IN ISAIAH 53? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isaiah 53 arouses lots of enthusiasm in missionary Christians. They smirk and wink, and say things like, "Well, who does THAT sounds like, eh?" Some think that because (in their minds) it so clearly points to Jesus that we Jews deliberately avoid reading it. One writer even says (and I quote) "Although Hebrew-to-English translators have labored mightily to obscure (Isaiah 53) meaning, it has been almost impossible to do so. Instead, Jews simply ignore it. It's never read by Jews -- never." In spite of this missionary certainty, there are both translation and contextual problems with their interpretation. The chapter describes a servant ("eved") whose condition is not happy -- a "suffering servant.". The central question is, who is this servant. To answer this question we need to know who is the speaker of the different verses. Christians assume that the speaker in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel or, even more generally, is all of us. However, by starting with the previous chapter, where this particular episode about the "servant" actually begins, we see in verse 15 that the speakers are the kings of other nations. The first problem with relating all this to Jesus is that the KJV of Chapter 53 has several translation problems. Verses 3 and 4 speak of the servant's "grief" but the Hebrew word here is "choli" -- "sick" Verse 3 says "we hid as it were our faces," as if the speakers were embarrassed by the servant' appearance, but the Hebrew "mistar" is singular -- the suffering servant arouses contempt just like someone who hides his face. Verse 5 speaks of "stripes," a specific wound resulting from a whipping, but the Hebrew "heverto" is more general -- bruise or injury -- without reference to whip marks. Verse 6 in the KJV reads "the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" but the grammatical structure suggests "wounded him with our sin," the implication being -- not that the servant took on the responsibility for someone else's sin, but rather that what someone else did hurt the servant. The Jews for Judaism analysis of Isaiah 53 makes these additional points about translation: in verse five, rather than "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities," the prefix "mem" means "from," not "for", i.e. the speakers of the verse hurt the servant, not that he was punished by G-d as a substitute for them. In verse 11, the Hebrew "yatsdeek" means "will make just" (by bringing the Torah), not "will justify (someone's sins by taking their punishment)." If you incorporate these different translations into the text, you get a markedly different impression. "He hurt a lot and knew what sickness was" just does not sound like"A man of sorrow and acquainted with grief." "We despised him as someone who hid his face" does not mean the same as "we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised." In short, the almost reflex identification of the chapter with Jesus depends on the translation of the text -- not on the text itself. And to see that in fact the text does not refer to Jesus, we need only to examine the ... The second problem is that Jesus doesn't fit several of the details in the chapter. a) As mentioned above, Jesus was never sick. Some say that he was sick during the crucifixion, but physical trauma (e.g. execution) is not considered sickness in the normal sense of the word. b) Jesus had no children. Some say this refers to disciples or spiritual children, but the word "zera" is common in the Tanach and, when applied to people, always means linear descendants, not someone's disciples or followers. c) Jesus was not buried with the wicked. One cannot even say he died with the wicked since the Hebrew "rashaeem" is plural and, according to the crucifixion story, one of the thieves next to him ended up in heaven and so was not wicked. d) Jesus did not have long life. Missionaries say he had long life in heaven, but that, again, is stretching the meaning of the word. e) verse 9 "Nor was there deceit in his mouth." doesn't apply because, according to the gosple accounts, Jesus lied to his family about going to Jerusalem. (John 7:8-10), and lied in saying that he never taught in secret (see John 18:20, vs. Matt. 16:20, Mark 8:30 and others). The Jews for Judaism analysis of Isaiah 53 points out that a) contrary to verse 2, Jesus is never described as physically unattractive; b) far from being rejected and despised as verse 3 says, the Gospel writers describe him as being popular; c) contrary to verse 7, Jesus did a lot of talking; and d) instead of being non-violent (verse 9), Jesus overturned tables, chased people from their jobs, and promised to bring swords. So then, while the first impression on reading a Christian translation of Isaiah 53 may be to think of Jesus, looking deeper shows that the Hebrew text does not sound like Jesus, and the context shows shows many differences from what the Christian Bible says about Jesus. Who then is the servant? Though some Jewish scholars have said he will be the Messiah, more likely the chapter does not refer to an individual person at all. Isaiah himself identifies Israel as the servant of HaShem: Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant" Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me. Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you (i.e. Cyrus) by your name; Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob." Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast." Christians have many objections to the idea that Israel itself is the subject of Chapter 53: http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Isaiah53.html
Since u seem not to read (or are incapable of grasping) what others say, I am done with your posts. It is like talking to a potted plant.
Nice job vhehn. Always great to see a rational thinker tying one of these mystical ghost-and-goblin believers into knots. This one descended into ad hominem faster than most. I noticed that rcanfiel hates the fact that the 'net provides us with access to so much information. Predictable; too much information is antithetical to the maintenance of faith.
Well of course, the extension of this is history, as it stands; Its much easier to educate people in the christian equivalent of a madrasas, these things are far more persuasive when nobody can read. It creates an illusion of magic, of superiority, of righteousness, where none actually existed-reading, and writing were regarded as basically evil by all early churches BTW. Why? Take's away that illusion of superiority, cant allow that. People might start thinking they have free will or something, or even worse, the worthless tools, spouting this shit from a book are'nt actually divine, in any way, shape or form.
Rational thinker? It was like having an exchange with my cat. The fact you are patting him on the back implies you either didn't study the exchange, or didn't comprehend it. Zero original thinking, cutting and pasting worm-infested materials that isn't even credible as a logical argument... I could have found much better "anti-scripture" posts than this. I spent years in the "religion / bible / is wrong or fake camp, and have seen much better information than he offered. Not to mention, it is not particularly satisfying with someone who doesn't bother to read your response. I am more than happy to debate the issues. But all I see from him are "article-bots" Generally, for every "it is baseless" article, there is a corresponding "it is true" article sphere. But I didn't come here to trade articles. This is a forum, not a "mine is bigger than yours" place. Forums are supposed to be for discussion. Show me where he addressed my points or put in value-add of his own, in his last 2 PRECEDING posts of this thread
Care to share those "better information than he offered?" I'm curious whether one can come up with even better arguments than what he "cut and pasted." If you say you can, I'd like to see them.
when you said this: "Personally, I went in the opposite direction, based on overwhelming evidence, particularly of fulfilled Old to New Testament prophecy." i knew you were a lost cause, so my purpose is not to change your mind. my purpose is to keep those who are still undecided but want answers from believing you when you claim that there was actually fulfilled specific prophecies that could not have been concidence in the bibe. there were not. if you would be willing to post your best case of fulfilled prophecy i will deal with it.
www.google.com Anything your heart desires. Try it - it isn't hard. You will get gazillions. The search terms should be obvious