Do we have to pay income tax?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Daxtrader, Jul 19, 2007.

  1. IHOP vs Waffle House 1937 supreme court Judge Yo Quiero ruled in favor of the "no pancake" defense.

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    #51     Jul 20, 2007
  2. There are a wide variety of ways that psychological denial can be expressed by a person who is unconsciously defending or protecting themselves from unwanted knowledge, thoughts, or feelings. What follows is a partial list of denial strategies. Human ingenuity being what it is, I couldn't possibly list all the possible strategies.

    "Affect Storm" or Exaggerated Emotional Responses

    This is a hyperemotional response to anything that threatens the veneer of denial or that questions the motivations of the denier.

    EXAMPLE: Take your pick among the usual ad hominem attacks leveled at anyone who has the audacity to disagree with the person in denial or to question his denial.
     
    #52     Jul 20, 2007
  3. #53     Jul 20, 2007
  4. #54     Jul 20, 2007
  5. Yet another "expert"
    opinion poo-pooing the 861 evidence was recently brought to my
    attention. It would be a full-time job to respond to all of them
    (the status quo always has a lot of beneficiaries, and therefore
    proponents), but the general gist of most of them can be addressed
    with one response. The example I'll use this time comes from a
    professor of law at the George Washington University Law School (in
    DC), so one would think that it would at least be a little more
    credible than the remarks of some untrained paper-pusher. Here is
    the link to the (attempted) refutation of the 861 evidence:

    http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/861.htm

    An
    important first thing to note about the article is that it cites
    absolutely nothing from the law. Not one word. Anywhere. As is
    often the case, it consists of a string of unsupported assertions.
    The closest thing to legal support Mr. Siegel gives is to say that
    "the rest of the tax code (especially sections 1, 61 and 63) shows
    that U.S. citizens are taxed on their income from all sources,
    whether from within or outside the United States." Again, nothing
    from the law is quoted. cont.
     
    #55     Jul 20, 2007
  6. As many of you know, Section 1 imposes a
    tax on one's "taxable income." It says nothing about how to
    determine what is and what is not "taxable income." Section 63
    generally defines "taxable income" to mean "gross income" minus
    deductions. It says nothing about how to determine what is or is
    not to be included in "gross income." Section 61 not only says
    NOTHING about geographic origin of income, or the type of commerce
    which generates the income (which is addressed in great detail in
    Subchapter N of the code, beginning with Section 861), but Section
    61 itself, for many decades, was followed by a cross-reference
    referring the reader to Section 861 regarding "Income from sources
    WITHIN the United States," and to Section 862 regarding income from
    OUTSIDE of the United States. (If the wording of Section 61 meant
    that geographic origin didn't MATTER, why on earth would we be told
    to look somewhere else concerning geographic origin?)

    I expect
    that Mr. Siegel is basing his conclusion upon the wording "all
    income from whatever source derived" from Section 61, though he did
    not bother to quote even that. But the first thing that should be
    addressed is actually a psychological point: WHY did he feel no
    need to cite ANYTHING from the law? My guess is that, being a
    professor of law, he is accustomed to having his students assume
    that he knows what he's talking about. In other words, his
    credentials ARE his support, and the only support he thinks he
    needs. (Conversely, many people might view my LACK of credentials
    as all that is needed to render my "opinion" worthless, despite the
    fact that I quote from the law itself constantly, as you'll see
    below.) cont.
     
    #56     Jul 20, 2007
  7. Mr Siegel asserts that 861 and its regs exist, not to
    determine whether domestic income is taxable, but merely to
    "determine[] whether income is considered to be from a source
    within the United States or from a source outside the United
    States." While that is ONE thing that those sections do (though he
    cites nothing demonstrating that), the implication is clearly that
    one should NOT look there to determine whether his domestic income
    is TAXABLE. Again, nothing is cited supporting such a claim.

    Being
    sans credentials myself, I must defer to the statutes and
    regulations. Mr. Siegel states that whether one's income is foreign
    or domestic "doesn't matter" and that 861 "is irrelevant" for most
    U.S. citizens, "because U.S. citizens are taxed on all income from
    all sources." However, here is what the official Executive branch
    regulations say:

    “(c) Determination of taxable income. The
    taxpayer’s taxable income from sources WITHIN OR WITHOUT the United
    States WILL BE DETERMINED under the rules of Secs. 1.861-8 [and
    following].” [26 CFR § 1.863-1(c)]

    Of course, to determine what
    (if anything) you owe, you must first determine your TAXABLE
    income, be it foreign and/or domestic. So how does one DETERMINE
    his taxable domestic income? I think the above is pretty darn clear
    about that. I believe the following is pretty darn clear as well:

    cont.
     
    #57     Jul 20, 2007
  8. “Sections 861(b) and 863(a) state in general terms HOW TO DETERMINE
    TAXABLE INCOME OF A TAXPAYER FROM SOURCES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES
    after gross income from sources within the United States has been
    determined. Sections 862(b) and 863(a) state in general terms how
    to determine taxable income of a taxpayer from sources WITHOUT the
    United States after gross income from sources without the United
    States has been determined.” [26 CFR § 1.861-8]

    Clearly implied in
    Mr. Siegel's comments is that you DON'T NEED to go to Section 861
    and its regs to determine the "taxable income of a taxpayer from
    sources within the United States." The rest of the code, he say
    (without quoting anything from it), says that citizens are taxed on
    their income regardless of its geographic source. Someone can have
    taxable domestic income, taxable foreign income, both, or neither.
    (There can't be taxable income that doesn't come from anywhere.)

    Consider the following, which is what the first section of
    regulations under 861 says, and has said since before I was born
    (with minor wording changes). While reading it, keep in mind that
    this professor of law says you should NOT be looking to 861 to
    determine your taxable domestic income:

    Ҥ1.861-1 Income from
    sources within the United States
    (a) Categories of income. Part I
    (section 861 and following), subchapter N, chapter 1 of the Code,
    and the regulations thereunder DETERMINE THE SOURCES OF INCOME FOR
    PURPOSES OF THE INCOME TAX. ... The statute provides for the
    following three categories of income:
    Â Â (1) WITHIN the United
    States The gross income from sources within the United States,
    consisting of the items of gross income specified in section 861(a)
    plus the items of gross income allocated or apportioned to such
    sources in accordance with section 863(a). See §§ 1.861-2 to 1.861-
    7, inclusive, and § 1.863-1. The TAXABLE INCOME FROM SOURCES WITHIN
    THE UNITED STATES, in the case of such income, shall be determined
    by deducting therefrom, in accordance with sections 861(b) and
    863(a), the [allowable deductions]. See §§ 1.861-8 and 1.863-1.

    cont.
     
    #58     Jul 20, 2007
  9. (2) Without [outside of] the United States ...
    Â Â (3) Partly within
    and partly without the United States ...
    (b) Taxable income from
    sources within the United States.
    The TAXABLE INCOME FROM SOURCES
    WITHIN THE UNITED STATES shall consist of the taxable income
    described in paragraph (a)(l) of this section plus the taxable
    income allocated or apportioned to such sources, as indicated in
    paragraph (a)(3) of this section.” [26 CFR § 1.861-1]
    In giving his
    reason for 861's existence, without (in his words) "going into all
    the situations where section 861 matters," Mr. Siegel gives two
    examples: 1) a foreigner distinguishing between taxable domestic
    income and non-taxable foreign income, and; 2) a citizen entitled
    to the foreign tax credit, who must determine domestic versus
    foreign to figure out the limit on the credit. Again (sorry to beat
    a dead horse), he cites nothing supporting his claim that 861 is
    only to be used in such unusual circumstances. Above, you can see
    for yourself what the OFFICIAL government regulations say about
    what the sections are for. Notice that they give NO indication that
    only CERTAIN people should be referring to those sections. Here is
    yet another example of an official IRS document summarizing the
    purpose of 861 and following. See if you see ANY indication that
    most people should ignore the section entirely, as Mr. Siegel
    suggests.

    “Rules are prescribed for DETERMINATION OF GROSS INCOME
    AND TAXABLE INCOME derived from sources WITHIN AND WITHOUT the
    United States, and for the allocation of income derived partly from
    sources within the United States and partly without the United
    States or within United States possessions. §§ 1.861-1 through
    1.864. (Secs 861-864; ‘54 Code.)” [Treasury Decision 6258]

    cont.
     
    #59     Jul 20, 2007
  10. I just
    can't relate to this strange psychological phenomenon wherein
    someone with credentials can assert ANYTHING, and somehow people
    think it needs responding to. "That section is only for
    foreigners/Americans with foreign income/albino wombats named
    Edmund." They ASSERT who should look there, and people
    automatically give it credibility, though the asserters cite
    NOTHING from the law supporting it. They can assert until they're
    blue in the face that 861 is for someone other than you, but when
    have you ever seen any of them QUOTE anything from the statutes or
    regulations which comes close to supporting that claim? Show me ANY
    citation which says that 861 is NOT to be used by everyone to
    determine their taxable domestic income. You will NEVER see one.
    I've done text searches through ALL of the tax statutes and
    regulations, reviewing EVERY mention of Section 861. NEVER is there
    any indication, or even a subtle hint, that most people should
    IGNORE 861 when it comes to determining their taxable domestic
    income. Quite the opposite, as you can see above.

    So let's review:
    we have lots of assertions but ZERO citations saying that we
    shouldn't use 861--that's it's not for us--and at least half a
    dozen official citations (including those shown above) which say,
    unequivocally and unconditionally, that those ARE the sections to
    use for "determining taxable income from sources within the United
    States." Why are people so reluctant to believe their own eyes, or
    to accept what is right in front of them in black and white? Why do
    they continue to give weight to the provably-false, utterly
    baseless assertions of people, just because those people have
    credentials (i.e., pieces of paper that say they SHOULD know what
    they're talking about)?

    cont.
     
    #60     Jul 20, 2007