defining a living thing

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Gordon Gekko, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. many people are probably familiar with the human ear that was grown on the back of a mouse. i was thinking about meat eaters and animal testing. i believe in the future we will grow bodies without brains, or complete brains, and use them to grow meat and do testing. this may sound strange now, but it will happen in future.

    i find it pathetic that the human race breeds animals just to brutally kill them for their body parts or to do testing. i don't care what people say, there are no souls. the active brain/awareness of surroundings/memories/senses/feelings are what you people are calling "souls." a soul is what the brain does. think i'm wrong? if you believe in "souls," do you think plants have souls? no. why? because plants don't have brains. what is a plant? a living thing without a brain.

    anyway, this got me thinking to define what it is to be alive. if we were to grow bodies (or body parts) for food or testing, at what point do they become alive? or at what point does it become ok to kill them and not feel guilty about it? i don't feel guilty eating plants, probably because they have no brain, thus don't have much of a consciousness.

    i think life/consciousness is a scale. some things are obviously more conscious of things than others. compare a dog to an amoeba. an amoeba may be living, but does it feel pain, does it consciously know it is dying when it is? does it have any feelings?

    i've never ever and will never beat my dog, but if i were to kill another dog in front of my own dog with a knife and then run after it violently with the same bloody knife, i think my dog would know to run away and try to stay alive. living things like dogs, cats, cows that have this type of awareness should not be brutally killed/harvested/slaughtered/tested on/tortured.

    meat eaters, go to a farm and watch how these LIVING THINGS WITH FEELINGS are killed.

    stop eating meat, MORONS!!

    and as i always say, contrary to what the bible says, everything is NOT here for us. one time some STUPID religious girl told me that's why she thinks it's ok to eat meat (because the bible says everything is here for us). what a pathetic human being.
     
  2. GG,

    Tough to draw a line with ethics under far easier circumstances. But when it comes to life and death, you bring up a topic with no real answers. You may think you have them, but think again.

    As you pointed out, there is a clear difference in life forms. While comparing an amoeba to a dog is kind of extreme, how can we know just how sentient any species really is? We can't imagine what goes through the mind of a dog or cat any more than we can imagine just what goes through the mind of a chimpanzee or Killer Whale or a bottle nosed dolphin. We assume these more highly developed (evolved) animals "feel" (especially in a sense of fear to stay with your theme) more than the "lesser" animals, but how can we really ever know?

    Horses are dumb as dirt (hell they sleep standing up; that alone should tell us enough). But they do have moods. And a mood implies happiness or sadness. And that implies thought beyond survival. Not many people eat horses, and hopefully not many abuse them either. But people do eat pigs. And slaughter them in cruel fashion. Pigs are relatively intelligent (we believe). Filthy, but not without brains. If they had any personality, well, watch Pulp Fiction:) for that discussion.

    OK, I have digressed. But people eat what they believe to be brainless living things (plants). Animals with no brains (clams). Non sentient (as far as we know) animals with tiny brains (fish), and relatively intelligent animals like pigs. And everything in between.

    Like it or not (and I don't like it any more than you do), but highly intelligent animals are used for medical and other scientific studies under often un-humane conditions. And of course, as you said, animals are bred to be slaughtered under obscene conditions (milk fed veal).

    You can make it easy and say "don't eat meat". And that is indeed easy. But when you say "don't experiment" then it becomes a far more complex issue.

    You mentioned that they grew a human ear on a mouse. While I haven't heard about this, it serves as an example of what may be possible. Obviously if you, GG, needed a new heart, and a human heart could be cloned from YOUR DNA in the body of a pig, well then I am sure you would have no problem with sacrificing the life of that pig to save your own. But would you have a problem if the heart needed to be grown in a dolphin or a whale? Or a chimp? What about a genetically created "human" host body with no cerebral function? You don't believe in God, so how would this be a problem for you? Is harvesting replacement parts in humanoid bodies created for this purpose wrong? Or is it more wrong to not progress medical knowledge?

    Do you believe it is WE that are collectively the "gods" of our own existence? Do we have the right to "create" life just to suit our needs and then discard that life when it has served us? (as in the example of creating a "brainless" human host to grow a new heart for you)?

    And if that is OK with you, then how and where does this concept reach an end point? An alien race so far advanced that humans are to them as ants are to us lands here on earth. Their leader, who has freed half the galaxy from the Evil Empire. but still needs to free the other half needs a new medulla oblongata. And Gordon Gecko is the only perfect match as a donor in the whole universe. You are the sole reason the aliens have come. Do you roll over for the greater good of the galaxy? Are you, the relative "ant' qualified in any way to even have a say as to whether your life has any worth? Can you justify your own survival when it costs the life of the savior and hero of the inter-galactic star wars that will be won by the forces of evil if you, GG do not sacrifice your relatively worthless life for the leader of the forces of what is right and just and good? Or are you so selfish that you believe preserving your own insignificant existence justifies the death of billions of oppressed sentient beings throughout the galaxy. All of whom are more highly developed (evolved) than any of us humans?

    What's the answer? Would you pray to the god you don't believe in for guidance? Would you say "fuck 'em, they had their run, and now it's my turn"? Or would you say "gee, I've lived a pretty full life; got to make over 3000 posts on ET, got to drive a fast car, grab a little ass, and I was lucky to be born, so now it's time to check out for the greater good"?

    What would you do? Of course the obvious answer is to point to Max 401 and tell the aliens "Yeah, that's Gordon Gekko". But these aliens are too smart to fall for that, so really, what do you do?

    Peace,
    :)RS
     
  3. you asked a lot of questions. i'll respond now to the ones i have immediate answers for. maybe i'll reply again later to some more.
    if i needed a new heart and one could be grown using my DNA in a human body (or partial body), WITH NO BRAIN, this would not bother me at all--NOT AT ALL. i wouldn't care about it like i don't care about fingernail clippings that i throw away.

    if this body was grown without a brain, i would not consider it conscious life. cells may be alive, but there is no person. so i don't think this is "creating life" as in creating a thinking being; it's just body parts. i would think of it as like growing a plant. cells are living, but it doesn't have feelings, etc.
    i think humans SHOULD think in this way. we should put ourselves in the position of pigs on a farm. if there were higher beings above us, would we want to be slaughtered on a farm? how would we want to be treated? obviously not the way we treat farm animals, so why do we continue to do it? what happened to the golden rule? not many people are proud of nazi death camps. what do you think animal farms are? to pigs, most humans are basically a bunch of cold nazi death camp operators. and as you pay for your meat, YOUR DOLLARS ARE FUNDING THE DEATH CAMPS.

    as for sacrificing yourself for a greater cause, although not pleasant, it is a valid concept. think of wars. as an individual soldier, you don't want to die, but sometimes a few people may need to die for a greater cause. at least our army is a volunteer army. i don't see pigs lining up at farms; we're just dominating them. also, it's not like we HAVE TO eat meat. i lift weights and i don't eat meat; there are ways of getting protein without killing animals. it's just unnecessary brutality.

    like i said, i realize you asked more questions; i'll think about them.
     
  4. Mmmmmm meat! Hamburgers! Jack in the Box .... mmmmm ...

    God strikes them dead for us!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Moooooo ZZZAAAAAAAAAPPPP ... Dinner is served!
     
  5. aphex, as part of the dominant species on earth, you may think it's funny, but you'd cry your ass off and beg for your life if you were standing in line with your family waiting to have your guts ripped out while still screaming--and after you just saw it happen to your mother, nevertheless. all so a probably overweight member of a species above you can eat his/her hamburger at mcdonald's.

    funny how a religious person like you doesn't seem to care too much about killing living things, but me, the big bad atheist, doesn't even kill bugs.
     
  6. replace the humans with pigs, how would you feel as a pig?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. http://www.restoredcog.org/questions/p051.a.html

    "Q: What does the Bible say about the hunting and killing of animals?
    A: As indicated in Genesis 1:26, God gave man control over the rest of His physical creation: “And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea…and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing…”

    The Creator then went on to very clearly indicate which kinds of animals were fit for human consumption, in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14:3-21. Very plainly then, hunting and killing animals for food cannot be wrong. King David was a hunter of game, and the disciples were fishermen. During one particular trip, it is recorded (Luke 5:1-9) that Jesus Himself even helped them with that day’s catch.

    It is also not wrong to kill predators. Again, the record of David’s youth indicates in I Samuel 17:34-36 that he killed a lion and a bear to protect his flock of sheep.

    When killing animals, one must carefully discern the purpose and attitude. Is it truly for food? Or is it more for the sport or trophy? Keep in mind that animals are, after all, part of God’s creation and, as such, should be treated with a certain amount of respect."

    Oh Lord,
    Rub a dub dub,
    Thanks for the grub.
    Amen.
     
  8. thank you for posting that. more evidence the bible is a piece of shit.
     
  9. Insightful response.
     
  10. Great, now you're resorting to a PETAisque campaign that compares killing animals for food to the Nazi extermination of jews.

    Wow man, you're so far out in left field that you're not even in the same ballpark anymore -- you're not even playing the same sport.

    Do you honestly think these posts on Elite Trader are going to change the world? If you feel this strongly, then go join PETA and help those ultra-liberals change the world so that one day we may all eat seaweed and dirt.
     
    #10     Oct 21, 2003