A reasonable statement. However, that is not the position of the ID'ers here, not by a long chalk. My personal feeling is that science would necessarily never be able to provide evidence for something like ID, because ID involves assumptions which are unscientific.
No argument whatsoever. But it still falls to the person want to prove ID is science to confirm it experimentally. Until then, it's just an idea. Z wants to give the idea of ID the same authority weight as the science of evolution. This is a public policy decision. It has nothing to do with scientific investigation.
All kinds of turbulence could be found on a sub atomic level, but have no measurable effect on the surface. We can see all kinds of waves on the top of the ocean, and complete stillness at the bottom. Different levels of the ocean is all. Sort of like saying that a solid wall is really mostly empty space, and then trying passing through it because it is mostly empty space. In fact, it is not known that sub atomic turbulence is not actually necessary in order to maintain stability and predictability at surface levels. Mostly useless to try and apply one level of truth to other levels, which is why people who try to introduce Heisenberg into discussions of non sub atomic activity show that there is no real merit to their point. Different reality exists at different levels of material existence. I would wager you that if you took mostly empty space on a sub atomic level (a hammer) and smacked yourself in the thumb (mostly empty space on a sub atomic level) that you would do damage to your hand every single time, no uncertainty of the predicted results at all. My claim is that every effect has some cause, even when the cause is not known. Uncertainty doesn't mean no cause and effect, it means that there are variables that we don't have control over, or don't fully understand at this particular time. My public policy comments are not a digression at all, they have been in my comments from the very beginning of these discussions of evolution. I could give a rat's ass what people believe. However, when the public schools are teaching beliefs of ignorant chance in science classes, yes, I have a problem with that. I also have a problem with teaching religion in schools. So, exclude both ID and non ID from public schools, fine by me. Or teach them both, but to teach one over the other when there is no way to prove one over the other, is just pushing dogmatism. That isn't science at all, it is not reason at all, it is not education at all, it is brainwashing into a belief system.
I'll bet that Z didn't even realize what he just wrote... after all, this isn't a discussion of evolution. It's supposed to be a discussion of ID. This reveals the ID'ers agenda with crystalline clarity. It is not about ID at all. It is a campaign against what are seen to be 'Un-Christian' trends in modern society. They want to remake society into something 'more consonant with theistic beliefs'. A most insipid thing, ID is. Oh, and btw.... Z, please stay away from sub-atomic physics in your rantings. You look more a fool than you usually do when you attempt to assert about causality. Since you believe that the origin of life on earth is 'Magistrates were materialized out of pure potentiality' (longer term members remember that gem from Z), your opinions about causality are essentially worthless.
Your claim is demonstrably false at the subatomic level. You are inventing a definition for uncertainty which is not supported by the science of quantum mechanics. Some things in this universe cannot be predicted in advance with certainty. They can only be approximated by probability. The very dice that you used in your previous post can be predicted to roll snake eyes once every 36 times, assuming that you roll them a few thousand times in a row. But, on any individual roll, the only thing that is known is that there is a one in 36 chance that snake eyes will appear. There is no certainty that the next roll can be predicted except in your imagination. You can hypothesize that given sufficient measuring ability you can predict the next roll based on the Newtonian forces acting on the dice. However, the reality is that if you shake the dice around in your hand and let them go, there remains a one in 36 chance that they will come up snake eyes, no matter the existence of those Newtonian forces. Uncertainty exists, and Las Vegas casinos are built on the graves of those who believe otherwise. The only thing that is certain is that the probabilities will be maintained over the long run. Nothing can ever be known about an individual roll of dice. Science measures probabilities. ID measures nothing, because ID advocates refuse to conduct experiments to prove their theories. If you want to opine that there is intelligence behind randomness, have at it. But if you want that opinion to be scientific, then you need to be able to confirm it by verifiable experiment. Otherwise, your opinion of ID is no different than the Astrologer's opinion of your future -- it's pure speculation -- not science. As for your public policy desires re high school education, you're free to advocate whatever you wish. That issue has nothing to do with the science of evolution.
John Dough wrote: Where are the experiments that prove a non-teleological origin of life? Where are the experiments that prove that only non-teleological mechanisms were behind all major evolutionary transitions?
TraderNik wrote: ID is an investigation into how evolution occurs. You can't discuss ID without discussing evolution.
Uncertainty does not mean no cause... It means uncertainty of cause... Physics is not about magic... Oh, and since you claim that science measures probability, please let us know what the probability is that observed changes in biological organisms are cause by design or chance... Oh, and by the way, Vegas won't let Bob Bright and other card counters play certain card games there, as they are certain that he and other expert card counters will win... You missed the point about roll of the dice. The point was, that if all environmental and external conditions are known, controlled and static, and if someone threw a 7 and could then repeat the next throw with the exact same position, angle, force, speed etc. as the previous 7 every single time, he would roll a 7 every single time. Simple physics. You might say that is not possible for a human being to do it, but could a properly programmed machine do it if all the data were known to repeat the throw exactly? Could a loaded pair of dice do it? LOL! Because the human being cannot control their movements exactly, nor control their environment exactly, that doesn't mean that a perfect roll of the dice could not be thrown every single time if they could...or that there is cause and effect in play. "As for your public policy desires re high school education, you're free to advocate whatever you wish. That issue has nothing to do with the science of evolution." Scientists can speculate at will, believe whatever they like, adopt any particular dogma...but when they push such atheistic dogma on children in public schools, that is not right. Just as it would not be right to push a religious dogma on children in public schools. Oh, still waiting for conclusive evidence that the changes we see in biological organisms are a product of ignorant chance, and not design...
yes but thats just a claim... causality is of axiomatic nature... lots of theories incorporate it, and provide satisfactory models of whats going on, as well as falsifiable predictions, and therefore acquire prevailing theory status, until they reach some limits outside of which other theories need to take over... those other theories need not necessarily make an assumption of causality, eg quantum mechanics... what you are struggling with is the fact that there may be "non-causal" "effects" as it were... but there are... http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1273842&highlight=paradigm#post1273842 http://www.interdisciplines.org/causality/papers/5 http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1275138&highlight=paradigm#post1275138