Discussion in 'Psychology' started by jokepie, Jan 21, 2011.

  1. jokepie


    Hi all,

    I wanted to start this thread to discuss something that has been brewing in my head for quite some while. I feel this might be a good contribution to someone who is starting ot is struglling.
    I have started to believe that there is NO difference is trade-ability (excuse my english) or level of difficulty between Day/Swing/Position !! The reason I believe this is that there is no way to tell which time frame a CHART is if you remove the information on its axis. For an example a 5 minute candle chart of any instrument with lets say 200 candles can be a daily or weekly/chart of 200 candles as well. It might very well could be a tick chart!!!
    So, if we remove the axis information, indicators & news only ABILITY that then matter is traders reaction TIME. Every NEW candle requires the trader to make adjustments to their conviction and make trading decision and the PAST candles are STATIC INFORMATION.

    Then what does it all come down to ? - EXPERIENCE !!!! which drives your response time.

    So, don't we all need to CALM the Fak down and take things slow. START BACK wards from position to swing to DAY. Highest possible time frame towards the minute charts. small size to big size and just keep gaining screen time and experience. Everything else will be FINE>

    In my years of experience, i hav seen big losses, emotion swings that left me trembling in my chair. I never gave up the quest and kept telling myself that I will achieve excellence and beieved success will be inevitable.

    The reason this thread is in psychology section is that BIGGEST factor in becoming a good trader is Psychology.

    I hope to contribute to traders and trading community. I believe in Teaching is the best way to learn. So, please do not Judge me what motives I have and take it as you read it. I have other topics that I will bring for discussion here that might help us all. I want to see if we can get a constructive discussion going on this topic.

    I hope other experience folks will contribute on this Idea.
  2. Using an analogy , you believe that running an 1/8th mile sprint at full speed, is no harder than a casual walk?... I can tell you havnt been trading long at all. The various styles are VERY different.
  3. jokepie


    May be I should have been more descriptive. Trading methods/ Styles are the outcome of a traders comfort zone and adaptability.

    The post I posted is to talk about if There is any FUNDALMENTAL difference in Tradeability.

    Additionally, I understand there are miilion other things that makes a Trader successful i.e Risk management, trade management and other keywords that we all are aware of.

    And YES to your question about the running 1/8th mile or casual walk. They both have the same mechanism to execute and same goals. They do however require different training expectations.
  4. clacy


    I agree that psychology is probably the biggest factor in trading. That's a no-brainer.

    However, I disagree that day trading is no different than position trading.

    I decided several years ago that position trading etf's and mutual funds and beating the market averages by a paltry 5-10% p.a. is 10x easier than day trading.

    I have a career/business for income and a decent sized trading account, so I think it's much easier to keep my "psyche" in check position trading for compound growth than it is for the day trader who is looking to get 100% p.a. in order to feed his family and keep the lights on.
  5. ammo


    investors buy and hold,eventually closing a position, this would be a form of swing trade or non daytrade, a new trader might get in and out of a position and make $50,as he learns the nuances of intraday moves and looks at a million scenarios he can't help but take in the bigger longer term picture,swing trading for several day move,and eventually warren buffett style long term investments,so since psychology is based on a collection of information,think 0 to 18 yrs of age for a base i.e. ,rollover,sit up,push ups,crawl,stand ,talk,walk, run,,add,subtract,read,write etc.., psychology would morph over time according to your abilty to adapt and change...your trading skills would be graduations of mastering of techniques thru mind/body coordinations as in the 0 to 18 example,not unlike many jobs ..... the ability to daytrade would be used to enter and exit(adjust) a larger swing trade ,and that swing trade ability would be used to do the same in a longer buy/sell and hold timeframe
  6. ammo


    the next type of trader would be the house who uses all the previous players to move the market in the direction he needs,sort of the sheep and shepherd scenario
  7. Great idea for discussion.
    The only problem is that it's a whole lot more complicated than can be explained in a few simple posts.
    You up for the backlash?
  8. NoDoji


    I've often said this as well and once posted two charts side by side, a 5-min chart and a daily chart, to demonstrate that price bar patterns look the same no matter what the time frame and as long as you choose a time frame to trade, stick with it and learn to trade it with an edge and good money management, you can be successful.

    The big difference in day trading is that you have to make decisions quickly. If you want to swing trade something you can leisurely review static charts at any time, choose an entry price, place a GTC stop or limit order to get you into the position, set your stop loss and profit target (or just trail a stop day by day) and take a peek at your holdings now and then.

    If you want to day trade, you're watching price bars in your time frame go by every N minutes, and need to make decisions quickly about what constitutes a valid setup, the price that would trigger your entry, where you'd place a stop (or where you'd average down and place a max stop, if that's your style), where to reasonably target profit taking, how to manage the trade in progress, etc. If you're day trading off price bars of 5 mins or less, these decisions often have to be made very quickly. If you're trading more than one thing, it compounds the complexity of recognizing setups and managing trades.

    One of the most common things I read in day trading journals here is along the lines of, "I hesitated and it turned out to be a great trade and I missed it." Or, "I missed the entry and chased the trade..." Or, "The trades I didn't take were big winners and the ones I did take were losers."

    To day trade intraday swings off time frames of 5 mins or less, you need preparation (minor and major S/R levels, plus trend direction in your time frame and the larger time frame), focus (no reading emails, playing video games, getting up late and missing the nice morning volatility), instant identification of a setup (know what it looks like as it forms at the hard right edge, not just on a static chart at the end of the day), and the ability to place your limit or stop orders in advance to prevent yourself from hesitating or missing the entry altogether. You need to stay focused during periods of boring price action because out of narrow ranges/consolidation come big moves and that's your daily bread and butter.

    So unless you're able to recognize (setups) patterns quickly in real time and act on them right away, throughout the day, trading all valid setups, you will be much better off swing trading, IMHO.

    The reason the day trades beginners take are losers or b/e and the ones they miss are the big winners is often because the big moves come out of volatile price action in a fast moving market on volume, which is "scarier" than trading after a move is done and price consolidates for the next push. Then everyone has time to think about the same stuff and you get chopped up because there's indecision, though it seems easier to trade that stuff, but it's trying to make something out of nothing when you missed the "big something" while it was in progress.
  9. Cheese


    On ET there has always been and there always will be the contention that there are different styles and ways to trade. Not so, however, when the single measurement is profitability.

    The usual condition applying to the amateur trader is limited capital. Therefore the best potential for the amateur is to daytrade. That being so, a volatile and liquid futures market offers the most points (eg CL, NG).

    So why would an independent trader not day trade? Pressure is the reason: an inability to take the pressure. Swing trading offers less pressure and allows more easily the excuse to hold through drawdowns.

    In other words, given that daytrading is best for learning and achieving substantial success by the amateur, there are no really different ways. You are either more successful or less successful. Each daily session, a market (eg CL) offers a maximum number of points. Now what your net gain from one session is, is how much of the maximum that you took.

    How many on ET know the metrics of the market they trade? As you start the trading day, is it a mysterious pool or instead is it something the speaks to you as a familiar landscape? Something you know as you go? Something that is your daily cornucopia?
  10. If you want to contribute to a broker's wealth and deplete your account , daytrading is way to go.
    #10     Jan 22, 2011