-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from ElectricSavant: Track Record experience blown up twice in their life... hungry 40 or over... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- my first thought was this was a crazy post, on second thought he could be just right about this.
practically 90% of the floor traders I personally knew about 10-15 years ago and who later made it, blew up once or twice.
many times people get the inital interview at the big firms becuse they know a trader that is already there that has referred them. Someone internally often fills the slots with a referral before resumes are reviewed. lots of times it comes form the competition.
they blew up company money or their own money? i think the question is "what are the firms looking for in an employee". Dare i say any employee that loses millions of dollars of company money or client money will be on the chopping block if it is directly their doing. Would you really hire someone to manage money if you knew they blew up their entire account more than once??? last thing a firm wants is a lawsuit!
Most great traders have blown out before. You need to learn from your mistakes like anything else. A good trader has a solid 5 year track record. Alot of traders have 1 maybe 2 good years and they are gone. Trading is tough business and not for everybody.
Trading firms look at everyone with a strong resume, whether from Ivy League or from a second tier state school or from the school of hard knocks, so your first assumption just isn't true. Some firms have hired people with no college whatsoever, but a very strong resume. But the hiring isn't complete until the training is over, as you know. The training programs are there for a reason -- to see who sinks and who swims -- and the waterline is designed to be very high and very choppy. Also, firms will filter resumes with a number of criteria, none of which state "only Ivy Leaguers need apply." I've personally met some real rocks from Ivy League schools that couldn't think their way out of a paper sack -- this academic inbreeding is what the interview and the training program are designed to catch. I would be looking at a resume with demonstrated accomplishments and skills, with a quantitative measure of performance or with a well-defined potential for performance that related directly to the firm's own goals. I would also look for the ability to think decisively and artfully, for the ability to take measured risks, for the ability to plan and act, and for personal traits such as integrity, discipline, the ability to work in teams, etc....the list would go on. If I were hiring for quant positions, I would look for math/bus background and perhaps this would require educational criteria or experience criteria beyond what I would look for in a trader. But I would first and foremost look for someone who could be taught and molded into a person the firm believes will serve its bottom line and its customers in a manner consistent with the firm's culture -- someone I could trust. I would be looking for someone well-rounded (again, perhaps a different criterion from that of a quant position) who could successfully fulfill a variety of roles within the firm -- but at the same time, I'm not looking for a cookie. I'm looking for unique aspects of a candidate that make him or her stand out as well. This is often the criterion that separates the perceived wheat from the chaffe when the field is so well-qualified. The interview would be the next step, when I would look at aspects such as confidence and genuiness, the ability to articulate well and think creatively under stress, the ability to listen and establish rapport, the ability to persuade, etc. Of course, I would also look at their desire, their knowledge of the firm and of the trading profession, their knowledge of financial instruments and their near and long term professional interests. And don't even think about sitting down with me if you're not presenting yourself smartly. If you have food between your teeth, stink or have stains on your slacks, turn around, get back on the train and reassess. An interesting candidate might have a BA in English, Art or International Relations. He or she might have spent four years working in Africa as a humanitarian relief coordinator, or eight successful years in the military as either a tech or an officer in any specialty. He or she might speak another language, whether Spanish, French, Arabic, or Tagolog. He or she might also have an unusual hobby or talent that they have stayed faithful to. Things I cannot make a judgement on are whether the person is married, if they have kids, how old they are, whether they are religious, and the rest of the usual blah-blah-blah. That is something that could get the firm in very big trouble. I don't care whether they are white, black, Asian or from another planet. I don't care whether they were raised in a poor family and overcame tremendous adversity. (They are a dime a dozen these days.) I don't care if they had an Aston Martin at 15 -- unless they paid for it with their own money. Then I would be interested in how they earned that money and whether they shouldn't hire me instead. Would it matter if they had blown trading accounts before? Not a bit. But it would matter tremendously and to their benefit if it came up and they were honest about it. This all sounds a little fruity, but it gets stinky soon enough.
Ok let's get a realistic look at this. The Ivy League system was set up as a network of connections for the rich & powerful. The "top" professors at Ivy league Univs or college/university for that matter are judged by their research and awards NOT their ability to teach. Most of these Noble Prize winner professors are very intelligent and esoteric yet are horrific teachers. Wall Street top tier firms such as Goldman, Merrill, etc. play on a different field than any standard trader or hedge fund. These guys do not follow the same rules we have to, they are a network of connections for the elite. Just look at Goldman who I find to be a very clever and manipulative firm, these guys do what noone else could get away with. Their escapades in emerging markets are astonishing, their deal making & i-banking operations are brilliant & crooked at the same time. Look, noone can really tell who will be a great trader judging from their prestigious resume. This was proven by Salomon Brothers bond desks in the 1980s when they became #1 in that field by hiring guys off the street who were hungry and street savy. Think back to the movie "Wall Street" and Gecko's speech. Look at NYSE and how it was and still is run, families of specialists, some which never even finished high school cause there is no need for it. Get real guys, when the playing field is leveled and you sit all of these supposed super players behind 3 screens and standard trading access, you get the same results as with most pools of applicants. Vast majority cannot make money, and this is exactly what happens when ex-institutional traders, specialists, market makers, floor traders sit behind the screen like any joe shmoe retail/prop trader. These firms get so many applicants and it is impossible to screen them fairly. So they go after the 2 top criteria, academic excellence as unreliable as that is and connections quality of the school. Of course Ivy leagues get preference, it is a special system set up not for intelligence but connections. But above all direct contacts and recommendations get you in like no other. Like the saying goes, it's not what you know but who you know.
There's something coming out of my eye right now? Does that count? I'm pretty hungry too, hmmmm let me look in my fridge and see what I have. ozzz
I thought I should mention something expicitly. Sports. Being exellent at a sport can frequently be parlayed into top jobs. As an aside ---not to prove my point because I realize this is extreme... Did you see the current jobs the guys from the 1980 olympic team have. They showed their jobs at the end of the film that came out a few years ago. At least half the guys seemed to have titles like head trader, such and such a desk, big firm name.