Convincing Atheist

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by dattaswami, Jun 9, 2006.

  1. Convincing Atheist

    The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. In fact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception. The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

    The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’. Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself.

    This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).

    At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

    Anil Antony
    Universal Spirituality for World Peace
  2. funny thing about miracles. they are always performed out of site of cameras and we havent seen any big miracles like the parting of the seas for over 2000 years.
  3. hcour

    hcour Guest

    I disagree w/the title of your thread. You're not a very convincing atheist at all!

  4. It is actually up to the believers to prove a God does exist, not the atheists to prove one does not. It is very difficult to prove a negative, sort of like guilty until proven innocent.

    The thing that really gets me about the argument is when it isn't working for them, they say "faith". Philosophy 101 - All knowing, all powerful, all good. But you can't understand how He works, and why there is so much crap in the World, so its faith.

    Thats great. I wish I could use the same argument everytime my girl was pissed off.

    Faith honey. Have faith.

    Yes, I am an atheist. I find it more than amusing that anybody can believe that crap. Hell, it was just in the past 100 years that they realized lightning bolts were not from God. A supreme being is something humans invent to help them feel good. If there was one, there would be one religion, and He would be damn sure you followed it.

    Just my opinion,

  5. Can you show me that these hell and heaven are not there. you also cannot prove that hell & heaven are not there. So atleast an equal probability is there i.e., 50-50 chance.

    Ex: A blind fellow is walking on road. Two people approach him. One says, there is a manhole in front of you. Other fellow says, first fellow is fooling you. There is no manhole and so can proceed. Now what the blind fellow should do?

    If he is wise, he will take a small diversion and then walk away happily. By taking diversion definitely, he has put extra effort, energy and time. But it is not at all a loss, why because if by chance manhole is there, he will fall in that and consequence will be more difficult to imagine.

    Now an atheist with rigidity will follow the second fellow's advice.

    An atheist with little bit of wisdom follow the first fellow. How? If you take an atheist, sofar he has spent some part of his life as an atheist. Now atleast for some part of time he can experiement thinking that Lord is there and observe and compare the differences in his own life before and after. Instead of doing this in his own life for sometime, he unnecessarily spends lot of time in gossipping nonsense stating that Lord is not there. He believes in people who support him only. This is the rigidity. Our wise blind man in our above example has taken diversion instead of going straight and saved himself. Likewise these atheists should experiment theism in their life for sometime and then come to conclusion.

    It is highly ridiculous to see these so called atheists not even thinking in this direction but they claim as wisest. This small idea did not occur to their wisest minds. They are not even allowing their mind to think momentarily also that Lord exists, this shows their extent of rigidity. That is the reason why they could not experience an iota of His grace sofar in their lives knowingly.
  6. balda


    There is no logic in your post.

    What if blind man also deaf?
    What if he doesn't speak same language?
    Does he have a cane?

    50/50 chance my ass.

    how about 100% chance there is no god.

    Go to any children hospital in your city and see what's been created by god.
  7. Hell, Heaven And Kingdom Of Lord


    This universe is infinite. I am unable to show the existence of these super worlds to you. I accept my incapability. But you are also incapable to prove directly the non-existence of these super worlds. Have you taken all over the universe and said, " Here ends the universe. Beyond this point there is no universe. This is the compound wall of the space. Your super world does not exist anywhere’’. Therefore, there is equal chance for the existence and non-existence of the super worlds according to the theory of probability.

    Now let us analyse of our cases. Both of us are eating to live. The basic needs are satisfied in the cases of both of us. You have spent extra time also in earning more money, which may give you some problems of health like sugar, B.P etc., due to over enjoying. I have not earned more money and I am healthy due to normal food. None of us will carry the money with us after death. The money given to the children may also be lost in several ways. Therefore, I do not find much difference between us, once the basic needs are satisfied. I am poor because I have spent my extra time in the service of God.

    Suppose after my death, you are correct and there are no super worlds. In such case what I have lost? There is no loss for me. But after your death, suppose I am correct and there are super worlds. You have lost every thing and God will not save you. Thus, even on accepting your argument, based on the equal probability, it is better to serve the Lord by sacrificing the extra time and energy for the Lord after earning the basic needs. You must read the theory of probability, which is perfectly a scientific theory.
  8. balda


    One imaginary person never done anything wrong, never committed crime, always helped his friends, loved kids, donated to charities, didn't believe in any supreme being. Died from cancer.

    Second person stills from his friends, parents, girlfriend, drink, uses drugs, kills a child while drunk driving. Goes to jail, found new himself became true reborn christian.

    third person priest (believes in god most of his life), molest little kids (who believe in god), never being punished, just transferred to another location to molest another kids. (transferred by higher priests who believe in god and also know about molestation cases)

    What is going to happen with first person, he doesn't believe in god so god cannot save him (by the way save from what?)

    what is going to happen with alcoholic and other priests? supposedly if they truly believe in god god will save them.
  9. atheism and theism are BOTH leaps of faith

    agnosticism is not

    we are here. that much is certain. why, and if there was or wasn't a prime mover - to believe there was, or wasn't is an act of faith

    to state you do not know is not

    atheism is a belief system based on a leap of faith. so is theism
  10. balda:

    Some people criticize God saying that even good people are unnecessarily harmed. You cannot be sure that a person who appears to be good is necessarily good. Did you observe him every minute from his birth? You also think of yourself as a good person.

    Are you aware of all your sins done in your childhood? You might have harmed an innocent insect in your childhood. Do you remember that? Even mental feelings are sins that are not expressed in words and actions. The feelings of the mind are the source of words and actions. Therefore the feeling may not hurt others today. But tomorrow it will hurt others when it comes out in words and actions. In fact, intention is given more importance in the crime according to law.

    The judge gives more importance to the intention in giving the punishment. Suppose you are walking on the road and an ant is killed by your foot, without any intention. There is no punishment for such sins. But when you kill the same ant with an intention to kill, you are punished by God. Therefore mind is the source of action.

    Even if somebody harms a really good person, it is better to leave it to God. You should not seek revenge. Why? The reason is that you cannot judge the exact nature and facts of the case. You do not even remember your own sins. Sometimes you commit a sin thinking that you are doing good.

    You cannot be the standard in judging your own sins. Only the Lord can decide. Therefore, if somebody has harmed a person who is really good even in the view of the Lord, then the Lord Himself will punish the person who harmed him. You cannot take the law and order in to your own hands.

    You have to refer the case to the court. Let the judge decide and punish the criminal. Therefore the Lord said, “The revenge is Mine”. If revenge is justified, the Lord will certainly punish. The Lord will not punish just because you pray to Him to do so. The Lord, will not excuse a criminal even if you recommend an unjust case.


    Neither do you have the power to punish nor do you have the power to excuse anybody. The reason for this is that you are not omniscient. If a sinner realizes his sin and repents, the punishment is reduced. After repentance if you do not repeat the sins, the punishment is cancelled. If the sinner does not repent, he will repeat the sin again and again. Such a sinner can be controlled only by punishment.

    If this were not true, the police department would have no use. There are some sinners, who can be controlled only by third degree treatment (severe beating and physical punishment). If such punishment and revenge were not necessary, and if everybody could be transformed only by preaching, then what is the necessity of the existence of hell and ‘liquid fire’? If there was a possibility of transformation only by love and knowledge, why would the Lord mention the word ‘revenge’ at all? Therefore it is clear that there are some sinners who cannot be transformed by love and knowledge.

    Some clever people criticize Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, who resorted to punishing sinners. Such clever people should explain the meaning of word ‘revenge’ uttered by the Lord and also should explain the mention of the liquid fire in the scriptures. If all sinners could be transformed through love and knowledge alone, such words should not have been mentioned in their scriptures.

    The Lord is the Father of all the souls. Your love for another human being is only brotherly love. The love of the Father is far greater than your brotherly love. You are criticizing your Father for punishing your brother! The father tries His best to transform His son. On the first day of the war Ravana was defeated by Rama.

    Rama could have killed him on the very first day. But Rama, asked Ravana to go back and think that night. The Lord punishes any one only as the last resort. Even then, the Lord does not have anger or hatred. The punishment is only the last method attempted for transformation. There also the aim is only transformation. But when you punish your enemy you do not have such an aim.

    Therefore the punishment by the Lord also reflects His divine love and kindness for the soul. Due to such a sacred aim, the Lord is authorized to punish the soul. He is just like a teacher who punishes the student for his misbehavior. The teacher does not get any sin in such punishment. The reason again is that the intention decides nature of the action.

    Therefore when you live in the
    world, according to the instructions given by the Lord, the Lord is pleased with you. The Lord will make you happy in this world. Your happiness in this world is an indication of His grace. Therefore you will be happy in the upper world also. He is the only one Lord for both the worlds. So if you are unhappy in your worldly affairs in this world, you will be unhappy in the spiritual matters in the upper world also. If you are blessed in this world you are also blessed in the upper world. Hence, follow His commandments and be happy in this world. When you are serving the Lord, you should be happy in the sacrifice. You should not sacrifice to the Lord with unhappiness.

    The sacrifice with unhappiness will make the Lord unhappy. The result of such service is unhappiness in the upper world. Therefore it is better not to sacrifice if you are not happy. Why should you purchase unhappiness with such sacrifice? Are you unhappy when you sacrifice for your family members? Therefore sacrifice for the Lord with force or unhappiness is not only a waste but it also brings negative results.

    Even in the case of your family members, if you sacrifice with unhappiness it is a waste. Therefore the intention is very important for the Lord. You should not do any sacrifice aspiring for something in return. Such a sacrifice is only a business. Business done in the case of your family members may bring a benefit or loss. But in the case of Lord, business always brings loss. Therefore live in this world according to the instructions of the Lord given to you with regard to other human beings. With regard to the Lord, do sacrifice and service to the Lord only to the extent that there is no force, pain or sense of doing business with Him.

    Some people say that the Lord preaches with love and kindness in this world for transformation. If the soul is not transformed, it will be thrown to hell permanently at the end of this life. They say that the Lord should not punish the soul in this world.

    This is exactly similar to saying that you should teach the student and if the student fails, he should be hanged to death permanently at the end of the period. You do not allow punishing the student with a cane during the period.
    Therefore even before the final punishment, temporary punishment must be also given to the soul. Before the final examination, interim examinations are also conducted.

    If the student fails in the interim examinations, there will be a chance for the student to correct himself before the final examination. Therefore interim punishments are part and parcel of the coaching before the final examination. The Lord adopts different procedures of coaching in different regions based on the psychology and attitude of the human beings. You should not criticize the procedure of the Lord which maybe different in some other religion and region.
    #10     Jun 10, 2006