Conservative Options Trades

Discussion in 'Journals' started by danshirley, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. WMT:
    http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111903882904577474580851310156.html?mod=BOL_hpp_dc

    WMT at 67.30

    Trade:
    Jan '14 47.50/45 bull put spread for $25
    Yield = 25/225 = 11.1% in 573 days or 7.1% annualized
    Prob = 97%
    Expectation = .97(25) - .015(225) - .015(112) = 24.25 - 3.375 - 1.68 = 19.2
    Expected Yield = 19.2/225 = 8.5% in 573 days or 5.4% annualized

    Trade:
    Jan '13 55/52.50 bull put spread for $15
    Yield = 15/235 = 6.4% in 209 days or 11.2% annualized
    Prob = 96%
    Expectation = .96(15) - .02(235) - .02(117) = 14.4 - 4.7 - 2.34 = 7.36
    Expected Yield = 7.36/235 = 3.1% in 209 days or 5.5% annualized

    Statistically the same trade a year apart
     
    #162     Jun 23, 2012
  2. Trade:
    Sept 45/40 bull put spread for $20
    Yield = 20/480 = 4.2% in 92 days or 16.5% annualized
    Prob = 95%
    Expectation = .95(20) - .01(480) - .04(240) = 19 - 4.8 - 9.6 = 4.6
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hi Dan

    I've been puzzlling over your 5 pt. spreads with 95%
    probability outcomes. I must be missing something in the calculations or i'm not doing them correctly
    ie. UNH
    A $20 return@100 trades yields $1900 (95 winners)
    A $480 loss in 5 trades (5%prob. ) cost ($2400)
    Loss woud be $500 with the 5 losing Trades?

    My conclusion would be that 5 pt. spreads have a greater risk than your 2or2.5 spreads
    Am i correct in this conclusion?
    Thanks
    john
     
    #163     Jun 23, 2012
  3. <<< I've been puzzlling over your 5 pt. spreads with 95%
    probability outcomes. >>>


    Personally, I think statistical "probability outcomes" are somewhat meaningless.
    Such outcomes should be based more on common sense than a generic math formula.
    While the formula may be helpful in getting some vague general fluctuating idea, at that particular moment in time, common sense should have already given you a general idea of the likelihood of success.
    If not, you probably should not be doing the trade.
    Whether the numbers calculate out to 77% or 93% chance of success is less relevant than my own analysis.

    For example, assume all variables are the same on a 6 week naked put or credit spread, including 2 stocks that are both 13% otm.
    But one is trading no where near any kind of tech support, and the other is once again trading at it's multi tested level of tech support, per the 1 - 2 year chart.
    Given a limited bankroll, which trade would you rather initiate.
    I'd make the decision based on analysis and common sense, and pick the one at multi tested tech support,... not a coin toss of statistical probabily, based on where the stock happens to be trading at that moment in time.

    I'd also base it on a few basic fundamental criteria pertaining to the companies financial health. While such issues may not be very relevant in the world of option trading, I look at those criteria to evaluate whether a stock has the "potential to recover", if a bad market takes it down.
    I'm less inclined to panic sell, if i know I have not invested my cash in an over valued, DEBT LOADED piece of crap..... regardless of how limited the loss may be.

    % probability outcome formula's, can give investors a false sense of confidence.
    Nor do they speak to the likelihood of the stock recovering in a reasonable period of time, if a bad market suddenly takes it down.
    Initiating a trade based on a generic statistical outcome formula, is a "lazy and risky" substitute for thoughtful analysis and common sense.

    Those 95% probability outcome formulas really are meaningless.
    Better to go with 96%.
    << g>>
     
    #164     Jun 23, 2012
  4. CE:
    Someone on another thread is selling naked puts on CE for AUG.

    I'll look at CE as I ordinarily would and see what I get:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/47861099?__source=yahoo|headline|quote|text|&par=yahoo
    I don't rule out a stock just because Cramer recommends it... some people do.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=CE+Profile
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=CE+Key+Statistics
    (note beta = 1.91)
    http://investing.money.msn.com/investments/financial-statements?symbol=CE
    (note loss in 2004)
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=CE&t=5y&l=off&z=l&q=l&c=^GSPC
    (consistant with Beta)
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=CE&l=off&z=l&q=l&c=&ql=1

    Trade:
    Dec 22.50/20 bull put spread for $25
    Yield = 25/225 = 11.1% in 178 days or 22.8% annualized
    Prob = 92%
    Expectation = .92(25) - .035(225) - .045(112) = 23 - 7.9 - 5.04 = 10.06

    Positive expectation... but the stock has too high a beta for me to actually trade, and it looks like I might have a problem getting the 25 when only 20 is offered.
    At 20 my expectation would be 5.15 or half what it is if I get the 25. I need the 25 for safety reasons.
     
    #168     Jun 26, 2012
  5. Actually I used to work as a bench chemist for a company much like CE... Rohm and Haas ... which was bought by Dow Chemical in 2009.

    A difficult and sometimes dangerous business. I remember the day I came back from lunch and my whole lab was blown out into the stairway. One of my co-workers miscalculated the proportions on an analysis.

    POOF

    Luckily he wasn't killed.
     
    #169     Jun 26, 2012