It is funny that you mention 2500/day =$500k per year...I always hear this argument from people BEFORE they start trading...It is almost a universal belief that some absurdly high number can be AVERAGED, but when even the better traders average their numbers (good and bad), they rarely come out to this high figure... I agree with your contention that the bigger numbers are made when the "noise" factor is filtered out...I agree with this for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that fewer, higher quality trades enable more trade management options, even hedging for longer term moves, etc, etc...However, I realize this is outside the scope of this argument and of the day trading/prop firm philosophy so I understand that it cannot be used...Regardless, as Hitman has said, the overall market volatility has dropped off so much from even a year ago, that making 500k now is the equivalent of 1m last year and perhaps 2m two years ago... I also find that trying to "average" a specific dollar amount per day is not exactly beneficial to trading...In tends to make you feel complacent on days when you have the "edge" and stop too soon, yet it makes you want to push your luck on days when there clearly is not enough range or opporunities to hit a pre-determined and arbitrary daily goal...
I know of no business who's business model isn't to make a profit. I assume that Walter would/has/does do it for a business reason as well - I have not seen him with George Soros recently at any of the of the Philanthropic parties. I do not know the circumstances of the backing at Bright, but I can assure you, _AT_LEAST_SOME_PORTION_ of the decision to do it was hard a core business decision. The environment is what the environment is - it could be no other way. As far as backing "talent" at Bright, I agree that it is not done the way it is at Worldco, (whatever that way is) but I have no interest in this - remember, I am not selling anything, and I have >25K, so these issues don't affect me. 10K a day at 2000 shares will be _5_ trades a day. I don't talk about the way I trade - but at 2000 shares, 10K a day each way would be a joke (I would be 1/5 of the way there just on OO) You misparsed my sentence, although I should be clearer and say: _IF_ I blew up and had no risk capital to trade, I would rather get it back up to $25K so that I could work my way back to 100% payouts. But again, this conversation does not interest me, as I have more than $25K. Hitman, _IF_ I trade at Worldco, I would _START_ with at least 25K. I am only interested in what payout would be if I started with my money and risked my money, not Worldco's. Again, I know this is free advertising for you to all the undercapitalized traders that are vomiting having this stuff pummeled into their brains, but I will stop responding to these "if you put up this much, you get this much..." diatribes. NOW WE ARE TALKING, but you need to bring the number to the left of that percentage sign _UP_. Again, I would only trade with Worlco, if after doing some arithmetic, I would come out ahead. And if I traded at Worldco, and ECHO or Bright offered me a better deal, I would be gone so fast your head would spin, and vice versa. IT IS A BUSINESS TO ME, and commissions are _THE_ number one overhead - I go where it is the smallest for me. Again, now we are talking. OK. Filed away. Don't care. OK. OK, I respect that. I am not in the NY area (I LOVE NY,) I am in Chicago. My wife would divorce me (probably not actually, but she would be unhappy) if I moved there. If it weren't for the school situation, we would be on as island, or Mexico, or Aruba, or I better wake up. I would go with whoever let me trade remote or let me open an office there. nitro
hitman - i'm on pace for 150k this year. i fully expect to make 500k next year. actually, i should get to the 500k pace per year by aug/sept. right now i have the luxury that my size can triple and it won't affect my fills or style of trading. i just have to deal with the emotional aspect of tripling my size, so i'm giving myself 'til aug/sept to fully adjust.
The emotional aspect of it is the hardest to overcome. And there is a WORLD of difference between a 150K a year trader and a 500K a year trader, it is not just so simple that you can flip a switch. I assume you like Nitro are undercapitalized to trade triple the size you currently trade, and believe that once you do triple the size you will automatically triple your income, doesn't work that way. Oh, and you need to be up MORE THAN 37.5K first 3 months to be on pace for a 150K a year, don't forget the 3 summer months. The bottomline is until you actually DO make 500K a year don't use the phrase "I fully expect", when you are talking about more than triple your current progress, IT IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT. Nitro: If you start with at least 25K I don't see why we can't start you with 99.99% payout, to Walter it is your commission he is after, not the 5% net P&L. The best business decisions are ones with absolutely no risk whatsoever. That said since you are in Chicago there is not much I can do. Now I don't know your level, but if you are way up there as far as capital is concerned you may want to call our main office, we are always looking for potential new branches if there are people with experience and capital to start them.
wrong, i could triple my size tomorrow if i wanted, but that would be going against my sizing plan. a tick for me is worth $1000. average volitality for the day is 5 - 7 ticks. now for a stock trader trading thousand lots you need a full point move to make $1000 which would equate to volatility of 5 - 7 points in a day for a stock! this is why the 500k is easier to attain in futures.
***now for a stock trader trading thousand lots you need a full point move to make $1000 which would equate to volatility of 5 - 7 points in a day for a stock!*** You forgot there are dozens of different stocks that can make you money in a day, and you don't have to on the front line of every single tick. I mean what hell, one of the most common strategies stock traders use would be "see futures rip buy stock". We have futures as a powerful additional confirmation instead of having to rely on pure technicals. Just because something provides greatest reward doesn't mean it is the best trading vehicle, NVR moves 10-20 points a day, NVDA moves 3-5 points a day, neither is a bread and butter stock unless you are TradeRX. ***this is why the 500k is easier to attain in futures.*** And a lot easier to blow out too. Leverage is a double edged sword. As I said, when you need to more than triple your current earnings to reach that 500K a year level, it is best to shut up and play. I don't understand why people who are way way way way off that mark are talking about it as if they already have it in the bag. I mean I would like to say I will be making 150K a year next year but until it happens I am not going to talk about it as anything easy to achieve in this business.
Thx for the tip. I will most definetly call to see what Worldco has to offer in Chicago - I consider it part of my research to do so. nitro
How many contracts (and which contracts) are you trading that a tick is worth $1000 (e.g., a tick on the ES is 1/4 point = $12.50/contract)? And don't be so sure that in order to make one point on a stock trade that the stock really needs a 5-7 point intraday range.