I agree with dgmodel. offer BOTH. First, there's only 1 firm that I know of that really trains people how to TRADE, they pay a decent salary so that you can go through a 1 year mentorship and learn how to really trade, not some lousy $2000/ month 'draw'. The other firms and LLCs that CLAIM to teach people how to trade do NOT GENERATE ANY GREAT TRADERS, THEY TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO WRITE TONS OF TICKETS AND BULLETS AND BECOME COMMISSION ROBOTS. True trading involves developing your own style and it takes a long time. These LLCs who train people to scalp for pennies are only interested in creating indentured servants to enrich themselves. Furthermore, they don't teach anything more than what you would read here on Elitetrader (there's a lot of good stuff here and a lot of friendly, experienced traders) Finally, on this topic, TRADESTOCKS149, GET REAL! To really get good at trading, it's a craft you largely develop yourself, not some stupid teacher or training seminar. Second, in any business to determine net profits, you subtract out COSTS. so why the hell is TRADESTOCKS149 telling people to ignore costs? What kind of retarted theory is that? That's like telling a trader NOT TO WORRY ABOUT HIS ENTRY PRICE when getting into a trade. And in this environment, a trader who ignores costs is just plain stupid. I don't see anything wrong with telling my fellow traders who are already fighting against specialists and MMs to KEEP YOUR COSTS DOWN! screw these specialists, MMs and LLCs who don't do much for you but suck your blood. MINIMIZE SLIPPAGE in whatever form, fills, costs, % upside payout, stupid trades, etc. And lastly, I don't know why you bash andover so much. I think there are many good firms to trade at, and andover is one of them. They offer great rates if you deal directly with them (not joining some stupid LLC) they have good software, and some offices have graybox packages too. I'm not promoting them since in my posts I've also mentioned that there are good deals at other places too like etrade pro, pointdirex, etc. and i suggested that everyone should check out those places to (and hopefully share with us what they learn)
I missed the boat, b4 saying something like that why don't you go to a firm and trade off a capitalized account of 500K and see what rate you get. You may be surprised.
agreed, most guys trading 50k a day are paying .005 all in, do slightly more and you're down to .004 and 100k puts you around .0035. if you're active like most people at the shops we mentioned, people put in 5-10k into a prop account (where the total pool might be 500k, btw, don't do stupid deals where you give away 5% of your upside) or open a retail account with 30k and you're set.
"Second, in any business to determine net profits, you subtract out COSTS. so why the hell is TRADESTOCKS149 telling people to ignore costs?" I agree 200% why is it only this industry where cost don't matter ? I will tell you, for me whenever you mention commission rates to the owners of the companies first thing you here is that you have to change style of trading and that it's not commissions but you need to become better, this makes many people shy away from fighting for their best deal. It's all the owners of firms own interest nothing else, we should all fight to keep COST as low as possible like samba said in every business in the world it does matter
For me the ideal firm is the one that has good service and support. I feel that most of the big ones echo, bright and andover are very close in this regard. So how do you choose which one? For me i then look for the one that gives me the best rates. The firm that understands that making a smaller amount of money per transaction off of me is fine. (Although this will be substantial over time) Why would a firm be willing to make a slightly smaller profit off of me? If the people running the firm have half a brain they will understand that by doing this i will probably trade through them for the next 20 or 30 years. Don't forget everyone that if you are a profitable trader what will the firm have to do in the future? Not much. It is extremely rare that i have to call in or ask questions. They just sit back and collect profits. But once again as i said they don't have to do anything now except make money off of me for the next 20 or 30 years! And for me with a great rate i am really happy as well. My attitude towards them is awesome. This situation is ideal for both of us. In this cutthroat market my rates are vital. They effect my bottom line dramatically!
I don't think the prop numbers is quite this good even at the better places for the sizes you are describing (although this can be fairly close if a trader is consistent, assuming these numbers are each way-ie 100k buy and 100k sell).
i say samba buddy why don't you open up your own prop firm and get sucked dry by personnel and technology expenses. do you think it all just happens by magic. if you can do it better and cheaper go for it. that how the free market works. quit bitchen', build it and we all will come.
Also the costs for trading on ECN's has gone way up -- take a trader who mostly takes liquidity are right there the cost is .003 to .004 (for Arca outbound and instinet outbound)