====================== True and as a practical matter you hardly ever saw the Israeli Old testament govt take an eye for an eye; much like a homeowners 12 gauge shotgun , didn't have to use that one much. Not bashing catholics, watch SKY Angel started by a Catholic business man; and a sad trend we still see some people who do not want to do what Jesus did, spend time in old testament. Remember King David took out with his sling shot, that uncircumcised Philistine terrorist ,with the permission of King Saul, govt pattern again. Remember another Babylonian form of capital punishment; lions den wasn't changed for awhile, God just sent an Angel to shut the mouth of the lions. Daniel , a minority Hebrew was spared, so never did buy in the wrongful death argument.
So, the thought of prison time deterred you from killing your ex wife, but the thought of being executed for killing her would not deter you?
Even with our present technology and wealth, our parole system is such that murderers have been and are released and murdered again. This happens every year on multiple occasions. This is undisputable fact, and can be verified by going to the Dept. of Justice website and/or looking at the URL I posted earlier that quotes one of their reports. Death is the only way to ensure decisively that a murderer does not kill again.
I'm just pointing out two remarks that appear to contradict each other. I'm not flaming him, just pointing out what he wrote. ET'ers quote each other all the time, so what's wrong with it?
yep - this isnt a problem of the us alone. prison doesnt work anywhere. you go in a minor crim, you come out with all the knowledge from other crims, plus the stigma of being a jail bird so no one will give you a job. this is the world over. the issue is that prison or any perceived 'punishment' is a negative reinforcement - and these never work to change behaviour - like beatings. they just make the recipient more bitter against authority. positive reinforcements DO work a lot better - but society will never accept this as they want the crims to be punished for retribution.
Positive reinforcements do not work. Change is made in the heart. Ask any ex-con who has truly made a change.
i said they work better than negative. i didnt say they always work. yes - change is made in the heart. thats why negative reinforcements dont work because they reinforce the negative feelings, rather than show a different way in a positive light. think of it like bringing up a child. if you beat the kid every day and tell him hes a bad sort - guess what!! he will grow up and be a tosser. you put the kid in a different environment - tell him hes a worthy member of society, a good person and able to achieve all he wants, chances are he will make a success of himself. now take a young prisoner. rape him every day in the showers, teach him new crimes from other inmates, and give him some more drugs. release him, and then see him comit more crime. or - try and understand why he committed these crimes, build his self-esteem and let him see other better ways and he could be a better member of society. of course, there are some folk who are just bad eggs and wont change. these are the folk where you just gotta throw away the key and face the fact that not everyone can be 'mended'
The "Redemption" of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams Dec 15, 2005 by Larry Elder Stanley "Tookie" Williams, convicted multiple murderer and co-founder of the notorious street gang the "Crips," died via lethal injection at 12:35 a.m. on Dec. 13, 2005, in San Quentin State Prison. California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, only hours before Williams' scheduled execution, refused to grant clemency. Who was Stanley "Tookie" Williams, and why did so many people want his life spared? The Crips, co-founded by Williams in 1971, became a national -- indeed, international -- gang responsible for thousands of deaths. In 1981, a jury convicted Williams of murdering four people, and he was sentenced to death. Williams claimed he was innocent, a victim of a racist criminal justice system. He partnered with a writer and co-authored several anti-gang children's books. Williams apologized for founding the Crips, renounced his membership and urged others to do the same. The usual suspects came out in support of Williams' clemency -- Hollywood stars and anti-death-penalty advocates. But so did the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). The NAACP took out an ad in the Los Angeles Times and began a four-city tour urging the governor to grant Williams clemency. Bruce S. Gordon, the new president and CEO of the NAACP, called Williams the organization's "secret weapon" in combating gang violence. Gordon also suggested that race played a part in Williams' conviction and noted that the criminal justice system "makes mistakes." About the death penalty, according to the NAACP's website, the organization opposes it: "The NAACP has long opposed the death penalty because in many states there has been a disproportionate number of African-Americans sentenced to death, particularly when the crime involves a white victim." But where was the NAACP's opposition to the death penalty back in 2000? The organization ran an ad during the 2000 presidential campaign of then-Gov. George W. Bush. The ad -- with a voiceover by the daughter of James Byrd, the man dragged to death by three men in Jasper, Texas -- attacked Bush for not passing enhanced hate-crime legislation. Bird's daughter, in a dramatic voice, said, "(I)t was like my father was killed all over again." But two of the three men convicted of killing Byrd had already received death sentences, with the third, who testified that he attempted to stop the other two from committing the murder, getting life without possibility of parole. The NAACP ad, in essence, says that Byrd's killers should have been punished more harshly. So apparently white bigots deserve the death penalty, but a black multi-murderer who founded a street gang does not. All clear now? Williams claims redemption, but refuses to accept responsibility for murdering four innocent people. Williams shot one victim, Albert Owens, who worked at a 7-Eleven, twice in the back, after Owens pleaded for his life. Williams, 11 days later, gunned down the owners of a small motel, a family of three. According to Gov. Schwarzenegger's decision refusing clemency: "Williams ... robbed a family-operated motel and shot and killed three members of the family: (1) the father, Yen-I Yang, who was shot once in the torso and once in the arm while he was laying on a sofa; (2) the mother, Tsai-Shai Lin, who was shot once in the abdomen and once in the back; and (3) the daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was shot once in her face. For these murders, Williams made away with approximately $100 in cash. Williams also told others about the details of these murders and referred to the victims as 'Buddha-heads.'" Consider the following hypothetical. David Duke, former imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, murders, in cold blood, four innocent blacks. But, wait. Duke later renounces the Klan and pens children's books urging white kids to reject racism. But he refuses to accept responsibility for the murder of the four innocent blacks, claiming that a racist jury convicted him for his reputation, not for the murders. Imagine Snoop Dogg, Jamie Foxx, Ed Asner or the NAACP organizing a campaign to spare the "redeemed" Duke's life. Williams' life inspired the movie called "Redemption." But a truly redeemed Williams would have said: "This is what happens. This is where you end up when you think the rules do not apply to you; when, because of anger and rage, you kill innocent people. I accept responsibility for what I did. I apologize to the family members. Please understand that I was not a victim of a racist, unfair criminal justice system, and I urge all criminals to first look into the mirror before blaming the police, the judges, the system. I made choices that put me here. The lesson of my life is -- no matter your circumstances, your race, your class -- you are responsible for making proper moral decisions. It is your duty to do so." That's redemption.
According to this official pdf file (page 87) of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision denying Tookie's appeal of the case, Tookie showed his saintly side during the trial: The judge called the jury foreman into the courtroom for questioning. The following colloquy ensued: THE COURT: It has come to the court's attention that there is a possibility that some remark might have been made by the defendant [Stanley "Tookie" Williams] that was heard by the jury on the date that the jury returned its verdict at the guilt phase. Do you have any information concerning that? MR. BRAMHALL: I do. THE COURT: What is that? MR. BRAMHALL: He did utter a statement as we were concluding. THE COURT: What was the statement? MR. BRAMHALL: "I'm going to get each and every one of you mother fuckers." http://www.zombietime.com/tookie/williams_hearing.pdf