" you consider faithful religious people pointing to their scripture and having different opinions on what that scripture means to them a "debate".... then you are the one who needs to be felt sorry for....." i am not aware of any evidence, or personal experience that shows religious people to be less involved in, or interested in debate than non-religious people. and that includes the subject of scripture. the religious tradition - whether talmudic, buddhist, whatever is filled with intense and vibrant debate on scriptural topics. some of the greatest minds ever to grace this planet have delved into these debates. furthermore, not to get into epistemological underpinnings, but ALL knowledge (if there even is such a thing) has to have an underpinning of faith, in order to have understanding (as many classic philosophers have agreed). i could get into the synthetic a priori analytic a posteriori etc. argument - but i won't. suffice it to say that many believe (as do i) that it is not even possible to have debate, knowledge, etc. without some underlying edifice of belief that is based on faith - since that is all we have - the senses being only an intermediary between reality and understanding some of the most contentious, argumentative, thoughtful, and inquitisitive people and debates have been on the subjects that religion attempts to address - these are the fundamental important underpinnings that have been important to every society since the dawn of history. "The faithful don't debate scriptures, scriptures are not the subject of debate, they are the subject of faith, and they are to be practiced with faith in them....and the intellectuals who debate scriptural sin on the basis of their intellect, not faith, are not truly religious people. They are what the Bible refers to as hypocrites, as they are placing their own limited intellect above faith in their scriptures they are "debating." " absurd. faith and debate are not mutually exclusive. and for you to claim that intellectuals who debate scripture on sin based on intellect are not "TRULY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE" is astoundingly bigoted, as well as ignorant. it sounds to me like you have some kind of petty, bigoted, ignorant axe to grind with religion, and with religious people it just makes you look small and petty, and devoid of any depth of knowledge, let alone wisdom. "Too many people enage in so called debates on scriptural sin, as a means of self reinforcement, as they have no genuine faith in their own scriptures." faith does not mean a lack of questioning, introspection, reasoning, or seeking of truth. "A debate process follows logical rules." in theory, yes. in reality - rarely. i say as former debate team member "Those who do debate in the name of their religious faith as to what is sin.....especially for what is sin for anyone but themselves, are fully being duplicitous....as faith is not a logical process." faith and logic are distinct, but they are not mutually exclusive. and ALL knowledge, reason, and debate requires an underlying framework (see Heidegger, Hayek, etc.) that rests on elements of faith. you cannot even HAVE one without the other. cue: evil genius and brain in vat metaphysical wankings... "There simply is no genuine debate when the foundation of a conclusion is religious faith, there is only war....or live and let live, as we have seen throughout the annals of history when it comes to religions." only to an ignorant bigot like you, is there no "genuine debate" start with The Screwtape Letters, grab some Aquinas, throw in some Talmudic studies, etc. and get back to me. it really is astounding how ignorant you are of these topics "The fundamentalist Christians who think homosexuality is a sin are not going to change their view as a result of a debate, as their opinion is fixed on a fundamentalist view and faith in scriptures, not a conclusion born of a secular reasoning process." it is interesting that you are so certain of this, but you are simply wrong. first of all, as i have said several times - logic and faith are not mutually exclusive. i know some atheists who think homosexuality is morally wrong. has to do with logic, since they don't have a scripture. many fundamentalists may feel homosexuality wrong/sinful based on more than scripture. many others interpret scripture differently. also, to clarify, as i know lots of (so called) fundamentalist christians. i know none who believe that homosexual orientation or desires are sinful (cue: jimmy carter adultery of the heart discussion), only those that think homosexual acts are sinful. and fwiw, last i checked there are no mentions of lesbianism in the bible - only male homosexuality. so, all those sorority girls gone wild videos are apparently ok :l "There is no debate....." there is tons of debate, among the religions, within the religions, among individual practitioners OF the religions, etc. "There is only faith, and that rational loving faith is seen in the good Christians," your bigotry and hubris knows no bounds. i am glad you are so insightful as to detect who are the "good christians" and define them thusly " those who truly follow the path of Christ, in their lack of judgment of the sins of others, and have nothing but acceptance and love for their fellow man....." i could explain to you that the written record of christ CLEARLY showed that he judged others - on numerous occasions. but facts apparently aren't able to penetrate your BARRIER OF ALLKNOWING GOODNESS which jesus are you referring to - hippycrunchy godspell jesus, Depeche Mode's own personal jesus, oh so fashionably coiffed hollywood jesus, exceptionally gory mel gibson styled jesus, singing in perfect key jesus christ superstar jesus, getting it on with mary last temptation jesus, or his alter ego - Brian? i really don't know where you get your understanding or lack thereof , but if i may get all biblical - in a trading forum no-less- WITH ALL THY GETTING, GET UNDERSTANDING -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from whitster: "p.s. There is no debate when it comes to sin, as people determine sin not by secular reasoning, but by indoctrination into a belief system that defines sin according to scriptures." you really have no clue. i am not saying that as an insult, it just is so amazingly obvious. do you have ANY knowledge of the history of religion? the great philosophers (religious or not)? to actually state there is "no debate?" lol the jesuits, the benedictine, the orthodox jewish tradition, blah blah blah you have this incredibly narrow and bigoted view of religion. your prejudice is just amazing if you really believe this narrow stereotypical bigoted rubbish you type i feel sorry for you. your world is so narrow, so cold, and so detached from the reality of how people actually live their lives. it is very sad. "no debate". possibly the dumbest comment i have ever read about religion in general, and sin in particular
Yes. I agree we need to vigorously defend free speech, but I don't think the left is nearly the threat that the religous fundamentalists are. You know these 'right thinking' zombies would love nothing better than to take away free speech and substitute a theocracy, with rigid behavior, speech and thought control. bt
The small minded and extreme on both sides will attempt to limit free speach in one fashion or another. I have had the fortune to know many extremely relisious persons who while may not agree with some of the free speach floating around out there, they have no desire to supress it. Personal experice has taught me that in general the liberal types are more into silencing dissenting opinions than the religious right. That's just one persons experience.
Great quote. Shows what science and rationality are up against. The bible is a fairy tale. Might as well follow this guy: http://www.venganza.org/ bt
We are a decaying culture. But what is the fix? I don't think it is non-thinking religious fundamentalism. I guess we need to have our collective ass kicked by God (nature) and this will surely happen. Here's more tolerance from the religious right: "First evolution. Then sex ed. Now add satire to the list of what some Kansas school board members would remove from the public schools." http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/14338630.htm bt
I can demonstrate that you are wrong. For most of this country's history, what you regard as "religious fundamentalists" were in charge. From the Founders up until the last 35 years or so, it was an article of faith that God should be in the classroom and government, that it was not only acceptable but laudatory that religious displays be placed on government property, homosexuality was denounced as a sin and a perversion by both pastors and psychiatrists, abortion was illegal in most states and pornography did not warrant First Amendment protection. Somehow that reign of theocratic oppression produced the greatest country on earth, with kids who actually read at grade level, a free and vigorous press, low crime and a society marked by civility and mutual respect. I'm sure we all shudder at the prospect of having to endure that again.
Bullsht. The current wave of non-thinking religious fundamentalism has little to do with our country's religious traditions. Go ask Thomas Jefferson or John Adams. Fortunately they are still in a minority. But they are frighteningly intolerant... http://www.venganza.org/email_neg.htm bt
amen and by the way since that reign of theocratic oppression has been judically thwarted, it is the consensus by liberals and conservatives that are country has either losts its edge or is going to hell in a handbasket. It takes value(s) to improve your worth.